ducktective•9m
Clojure Desktop UI Frameworkgithub.com
138 comments
  • kpw94•8m

    I'm sure Clojure is a great language for some tasks...

    But, looking at the examples (picked the Wordle one since I know that game): https://github.com/HumbleUI/HumbleUI/blob/main/dev/examples/...

    I find it extremely hard to read. Even small snippets, say line 56 to 74 which define this "color", "merge-colors" and "colors"... then the "field" one lines 76 to 117 is even harder.

    is it more natural read for people familiar with writing functional programs? (am I permanently "broken" due to my familiarity with imperative programing?)

    I wonder what the same Wordle example would look like in, say pure Flutter.

    Also wonder how would that code look with external dependencies (say hitting a server to get the word of the day), and navigation (with maintaining state in between those pages)

    • trentonstrong•8m

      "is it more natural read for people familiar with writing functional programs? (am I permanently "broken" due to my familiarity with imperative programing?)"

      As just one person who has written a great deal of functional code, it reads well to me. I think because I am used to reading it "inside out"? Reading lisp-likes is probably helpful.

      Take 'color' for example. It opens with a 'cond', with three branches. First branch is if the idx-th position in word is the same as letter, return green. Second branch is if the word includes the latter at all, yellow. Otherwise we're grey.

      That took me a few seconds to grok. Just one anecdote for you. Don't think you're broken but reading/writing this kind of code even a little bit will change the way you see code IMO.

      • exitb•8m

        This is the function that confused the person you respond to, ported to Python:

            def color(word, letter, idx):
        if word[idx] == letter:
            return GREEN
        elif letter in word:
            return YELLOW
        else:
            return GREY
        I know which one I'd prefer to grok at 2AM with alerts going off.
        • JaumeGreen•8m

          That's because you are more familiar with whatever style of code you are used to.

          Don't confuse familiarity with readability.

        • miroljub•8m

          > I know which one I'd prefer to grok at 2AM with alerts going off.

          At that time I'd just opt for sleep. Or sex. Or drink. Reading code doesn't belong to things one should do at 2AM.

          • auggierose•8m

            And yet we've all done it.

            • miroljub•8m

              No. We didn't. At least not we all.

              That's just a myth spread by a few workaholic programmers. Luckily, there are enough 9-5 programmers to clean up the mess created by those 2AM committers.

              • tekknik•8m

                note how they said grok and not work? this is what oncall looks like, reading code at 2 AM

              • auggierose•8m

                I'll invoke a no true Scotsman argument here.

        • freilanzer•8m

          > I know which one I'd prefer to grok at 2AM with alerts going off.

          I hate meaningless statements like this. This means nothing, other maybe that you know Python. 20 years ago people might have said that about Python - I even know many people today who would say that about Python.

          • zikzak•8m

            I was in a "101" undergrad compsci class the first year the program used Java (1997, I think?) and so this asst prof was showing a simple example of some Java syntax.

            I had been programming in C for a while, learning from K&R, to build ray tracing input files and that sort of thing so I was kind of disappointed but whatever, I was a mature student who had rediscovered computers a couple of years before (had a C64 in the 80s) and was just happy to be there.

            Anyway, this guy in the back yells out "I could do that in 2 lines of Q-BASIC" or something to that effect (Q-BASIC was definitely part of his pithy one-liner). Little did I know he was representing so many of the people I would encounter over the next decades.

        • itishappy•8m

          Honestly both read about the same to me, and I'm largely unfamiliar with Clojure. The main difference appears to be the 3 `str` callouts, which appear extraneous as the following version works just the same:

              (defn color [word letter idx]
      (cond
        (= (nth word idx) letter) :green
        (str/includes? word letter) :yellow
        :else :gray))
          Interesting that even with the `str` callouts removed, the function still appears to work on other datatypes such as:

              (def s (seq ("test1"))
          A lazy sequence, but one Clojure still allows to be indexed over in O(1) time. That's probably what the `str` conversion was trying to speed up.

          Python, meanwhile, fails on lazy input as it isn't indexable.

              word = (c for c in "test1")
          I guess I'll be checking out Clojure this weekend.
          • kazinator•8m

            I'm guessing that str allow it to work when the inputs are symbols? So that they are compared as strings rather than by identity. There could be more than one symbol named "foo"; if you want those to compare the same, you can't use regular symbol equality.

            Or possibly the code even uses non-symbols for some of the arguments. Suppose that letter is sometimes the integer 1.

        • jdminhbg•8m

          I do definitely get more 2AM alerts going off when I work with Python, so it's got that going for it.

        • hyperhello•8m

          Having written a wordle clone recently, this produces the wrong result, by the way. For example guess SASSY with the answer STICK.

        • millerm•8m

          Kotlin time (since we're in the JVM context for Clojure)

              fun color(word: String, letter: Char, idx: Int) =
      when (letter) {
        word[idx] -> GREEN
        in word -> YELLOW
        else -> GRAY
      }
        • Zak•8m

          And here's what cond could look like in Python syntax:

              def color(word, letter, idx):
        cond:
            word[idx] == letter: return GREEN
            letter in word: return YELLOW
            True: return GREY
        • •8m
          [deleted]
      • thaumasiotes•8m

        > It opens with a 'cond', with three branches. First branch is if the idx-th position in word is the same as letter, return green. Second branch is if the word includes the letter at all, yellow.

        This is a tangent, but I've been thinking about how I feel when the conditions of an if-else ladder rely on the order they're listed in.

        This is an example; if you swapped the order of those branches around, the coloration would become incorrect.

        I'm a little happier when the conditions are described completely, such that swapping the order of the checks doesn't change which of them evaluate false or true, but it's also true that that can add quite a bit of complexity over an order-sensitive set of conditions.

        Thoughts?

        • Zak•8m

          You could do something like this in Clojure:

              (first (filter identity
                   [(and (condition-three) (action-three))
                    (and (condition-one) (action-one))
                    (and (condition-four) (action-four))
                    (and (condition-two) (action-two))]))
          And you could write a macro to do it with nice syntax. A bit more work and you could parallelize it.

          You probably wouldn't want to most of the time, but if the conditions are slow to test but otherwise inexpensive, it might be a useful optimization.

        • krferriter•8m

          Having the order matter and matching the first `true` branch makes for more readable and less-wordy if statements. Otherwise when you have two conditions which have any overlap, such as A and B, for the A branch you need to add `and not B` and for the B branch you need to add `and not A`. This can create very long expressions. Having them evaluate in order and only match the first true one makes this unnecessary.

        • Pet_Ant•8m

          I mean if the checks are expensive and it's on hot path, then that's wasteful.It might also require then to use more nesting of IFs which isn't necessarily nicer.

    • ceronman•8m

      It's possible to write some pretty unreadable code with Clojure, just like it's possible in any programming language.

      I can tell you that this code is very easy to read if you are familiar with Clojure. In fact, this example is lovely! Seeing this code really makes me wanting to try this library! Clojure has this terse, yet readable aesthetic that I like a lot.

      But I completely understand you because at some point Clojure code also looked alien to me. You are not broken for having familiarity with some style of code. Familiarity is something you can acquire at any time, and then this code will be easy to read.

      True hard-to-read code is one that is hard to understand even if you master the language it is written in.

    • CraigJPerry•8m

      >> I find it extremely hard to read. Even small snippets, say line 56 to 74 which define this "color”

      I think you make a great point, a point that once someone has gotten used to lisp, is harder to fully appreciate. I’m at the stage now in my lisp journey that i didn’t find those hard to read but it wasn’t that long ago that i felt almost nerd sniped by this weird language. I think it’s worth pointing out that in a more advanced example, I’d still have been comfortable because of the repl - I could navigate between each sub expression with a keystroke and I can send each to the repl with a keystroke and see what they do. Lisp really makes it easy to do this kind of bottom-up assembly - both when you’re writing and when you’re understanding someone else’s code.

      A corollary to that, and which was key to me falling in love with lisps, is that the signal-to-noise ratio is off the charts. Whatever you want to implement, probably doesn’t require a lot of code. Wordle in 189 lines is pretty decent. There’s just less to fit in your head and what’s there tends to be solving the problem at hand, not boiler plate.

      • slowmovintarget•8m

        Just don't mention Electric Clojure, because that might cause some head explosions. (Fully reactive multi-tier programs where an entire web UI is 60 lines of code and implements infinite scroll with search and dynamic viewport resizing.)

        If you know Clojure, the code presented in the example seems fairly straightforward. Parentheses demarcate the syntax tree; and the last expression in any tree is the result carried forward.

    • yen223•8m

      It's just a matter of familiarity. If you showed me an article written in Italian I would struggle to read it, but that's not because Italian is inherently an unreadable language.

    • Zak•8m

      As an experienced Clojure programmer, I found that code easy to read. It uses quite a few idioms that are specific to Clojure or at least Lisp.

      Examples include cond, let [{:keys ...}], for being a list comprehension rather than a loop, #(%) function literals, and @ deref.

      • tmountain•8m

        Also found it easy to read even though I haven't written any Clojure in about a decade (spent a LOT of time with it when it was new).

    • dimitar•8m

      Let's see the features used in that snippet:

      * The cond macro which works similarly to C switch

      * Hashmap functions like merge and merge-with

      * Destructuring

      * The for macro which is similar to the "for each in" statements

      None of these are something unfamiliar to common programming languages so that code will not be hard understand once you go over the initial syntax and idiom hump. The syntax makes things much easier once you get to used to it, I think all Clojure programmers like it.

    • erichocean•8m

      > I find it extremely hard to read.

      I avoided Clojure for nearly 15 years because I thought so too.

      Turned out I spoke English and couldn't read Russian. But that didn't mean Russian was unreadable—I just didn't know how. It had nothing to do with whether or not it was "readable" or not, it was easy to read (and understand) once I learned how.

      After about two weeks, I found reading Clojure to be just as easy as any other code. I did that at 46, so I don't think age is a major barrier. (I've written read and written code my entire life.)

      I'm now writing Clojure code every day and am much happier as a developer. (That's why I made the effort initially, and it definitely paid off.)

      One thing that really helped was asking ChatGPT or Claude to explain a piece of Clojure code to me, when I had questions. Especially early on, that was invaluable.

      Also, learning structured code editing made a big difference—I consider it to be essential. It was extremely frustrating until I spent an afternoon doing that.

      Clojure code is "read" differently than, say, Python or JavaScript or C and that's reflected in how you navigate and edit the code.

      YMMV

      • grugagag•8m

        Can you expand on structured code editing?

        • iLemming•8m

          Structural editing commands are like 'slurp' - swallows an expression inside another one; 'barf' - spits out a thing out of an expression; You can also do it from the left or right side. 'wrap' - wraps a selection into an expression; 'unwrap' - does the opposite; 'transpose' - swaps two expressions at point, and there are more commands.

          Once you learn the basic structural editing commands, writing code becomes like composing poetry out of haiku pieces. Instead of thinking like: "how do I grab these vars used inside this function and refactor it to be them in their own unit?...", you'd just grab some expressions and move them around, like bricks or lego pieces. It is extremely satisfying way of writing programs. The only drawback of that approach is that later it becomes harder to work with "more traditional" PLs, you just can't easily manipulate code the same way in Python, JS/TS, Kotlin, Java, C++, etc. - you need a "structured", homoiconic, lispy language for that trick to work. Treesitter makes an effort to improve the process, but it still not on the same level of simplicity.

        • cess11•8m

          I think they mean when you learn the shortcuts for selecting and manipulating entire blocks between matching parentheses in an editor that helps balance them and so on, making it rather easy to test things out and refactor Lisp-like code.

    • forgetfulness•8m

      This one's pretty clean for Clojure code, due to the simplicity of the data model, in the most conventional sense, as the state of the program is just the word, the guesses, and the grid of colored characters for the guesses.

      External dependencies you manage like in most other applications nowadays, you don't hit external services in the "guts" of your code unless you really need to, for performance, testability and to keep the less reliable parts of your code isolated, you keep the interactions with external services as close to the "main" of the application as you can.

      When things break down is with more complex data models of the application, not even as much because of the language itself but because Clojure programmers actively reject using record types and interfaces, and just pass dictionaries around. You wind up with some code that, bafflingly, gives the impression of being very simple and neat, but you can't tell what it's actually doing.

    • vaylian•8m

      Clojure is a lisp. Lisp languages represent code as trees. That's why you have so many parentheses. The trees contain language constructs (if, cond, let, defn, ...), data (numbers, strings,...) and names (function names, names of value bindings). There is also some more advanced syntax for quoting and macros.

      When reading lisp code, you navigate it like a tree. Indention matters and clean lisp code has the same indention level for all sibling nodes (with minor deviations for special constructs). Most code follows the pattern of defining "variable" bindings (e.g. via `let`) and then it has one final expression that uses all these bindings to calculate a value.

        (defn name-of-a-function-that-i-define [first-argument second-argument]
    (let [sum-of-some-numbers (+ 1 2 3)
          product-of-some-numbers (* 1 2 3)]
      (+ first-argument
         second-argument
         sum-of-some-numbers
         product-of-some-numbers)))
      • ulbu•8m

        (i'll just make it clear that indentation matters to users as a strongly recommended convention for ease of reading. to the interpreter, you can write everything on a single line)

        • gorjusborg•8m

          I'll add that the related 'power' many Lisp acolytes talk about stems from the fact that everything is a list of lists. Due to this, you can write programs that take syntax (a list of lists) and modify that syntax to do something else (another list of lists).

          Imagine a language that has a built in parser and code generation library.

        • vaylian•8m

          Correct. This is not python.

    • soerxpso•8m

      It's readable, your (justified) problem is with his names. There's no language where "colors" and "field" will be descriptive function names that make it clear what's going on.

    • koito17•8m

      I use Clojure professionally, but it's readable to me. I would personally encode the color merging rules differently since it looks too obscured as-is. But I think what doesnt help is the lack of types (or schemas) and the unhelpful function names, as described by another commenter.

      Also,

        (apply merge-with {} ...)
      is pretty "evil" in the sense that it's a very roundabout data transformation and would likely not pass code review at my company.
    • jb1991•8m

      > I find it extremely hard to read. Even small snippets,

      And unfortunately, you won't get much compiler assistance either with Clojure, beyond basic things. So it's easy to have bugs that will take a while to track down in a complex codebase.

      • iLemming•8m

        Clojure codebases may be easier or more difficult to maintain depending on factors such as team experience, project complexity, and code quality. The ease of tracking down bugs varies across programming languages and is influenced by development practices and tooling. Clojure codebases are not more difficult to maintain than any other PLs.

        - Clojure has strong type inference, catching many errors at compile-time.

        - The REPL provides immediate feedback and testing capabilities.

        - Clojure's immutability and functional paradigms reduce bug-prone code.

        - Tools like core.spec offer runtime type checking and data validation.

        - IDEs like Cursive provide advanced static analysis and refactoring support.

        - Clojure's simplicity and consistency make bugs easier to spot and fix.

        - You also completely ignoring Clojure's rich ecosystem of testing frameworks and tools.

        • jb1991•8m

          > IDEs like Cursive provide advanced static analysis and refactoring support.

          Can you give an example? Would these tools allow you to define a custom type with fields and ensure it is correct everywhere at compile time like a static language?

          • iLemming•8m

            While Clojure is dynamically typed, tools like clj-kondo, Cursive and clojure-lsp can offer some static analysis benefit like warning about undefined vars or functions. There isn't "true" static checking, but you can use Spec and Malli for runtime checking. That doesn't provide same level of compile-time guaranties as statically type language, yet it offers some unique capabilities that many statically typed languages struggle to match, like

            - Dynamic predicates - Spec allows you to define types using arbitrary predicates, which can be more expressive than traditional static type systems;

            - Runtime generative testing - Spec can automatically generate test data based on your specifications, which is powerful for property-based testing;

            - Flexible validation - You can validate complex nested data structures and apply specs selectively, which is often more flexible than static type checking;

            - Extensibility - Specs can be added to existing types without modifying their source, and data-driven nature of it - Specs are just data and can be manipulated programmatically.

            • fulafel•8m

              Yep, I'd add these advantages that schema systems have:

              - Power - you can do arbitrary checks on the data, static type systems are quite weak in what kind of properties they can verify (far from turing complete)

              - Flexibility to do checking at where you want at runtime (eg check data at API boundaries)

              - Ability to treat schemas as data, generate them, output them as data and share between systems (for example in databases), throug conversions possible to interop with other platforms (eg json schema)

              - loose coupling to your programming language, are just libraries

    • radix7•8m

      I've tried to learn Clojure a few times and just bounced right off every time. I found it impossible to read and frustrating and tedious to write. Everyone else who tries it seems to fall in love, but I really don't get it.

      • iLemming•8m

        > I found it impossible to read and frustrating and tedious to write.

        Perhaps you've done it wrong? To read any Lisp code one needs a REPL. And you don't typically type directly in it, you connect to it and eval things from source files. Once you get connected to a REPL, you can eval any expression and sub-expression, and with practice, you'd learn to grok the code without a REPL.

        And for writing Lisp, you only need structural editing support in your editor. Once you find basic commands - moving structures around is far more enjoyable process than writing things in an unstructured language.

        I am far more productive using Clojure instead of Java and Clojurescript instead of Javascript, Fennel instead of Lua, etc. - it's easier to read, easier to modify, easier to maintain. But, yeah, it does require some practice, just like any other skill.

        • radix7•8m

          I am well aware of the benefits of a REPL, and find it pretty essential for learning any language. It didn't help me grok clojure any better, though.

          I'm not sure what you mean by structural editing support. I usually find things like autocomplete or automatic parenthesis to be more of a nuisance than a help.

          • iLemming•8m

            > find it pretty essential for learning any language

            No, REPLs in other languages are not equal to REPLs in Lisp dialects. I bet what you are describing is not the same workflow that an average Clojurian would use. In other languages you typically type directly into the REPL console. With Clojure, you typically connect your editor to a running REPL instance and then manipulate things directly from the source code - you basically write the program, while living inside it - your codebase becomes a living, breathing, maleable entity.

            Structural editing has little to do with autocomplete, it's just a way to manipulate expressions - move them around, raise them, transpose them, wrap/unwrap, etc.

            I suppose you tried to understand Clojure by looking at the code, and that could be challenging - without proper REPL and structural editing support, it may not be the same joyful experience that many Clojurians know.

            • radix7•8m

              Yes, I've heard this sales pitch before. Yes, I used an actual REPL tied to an editor, among other configurations. I found it rather underwhelming. I tried a few other lisp dialects as well, but had the same experience. Interactivity is great, but it doesn't make up for the language itself.

              • iLemming•8m

                "Underwhelming"? Seriously? I don't think you actually tried the real thing, have you? I don't know about you, I find it extremely satisfying, when you can run a basic Puppeteer or Playwright script and then explore the DOM structure directly from your editor, without having to copy/paste, move or change your code, or even using devtools (everything controlled from your editor), and then navigate the page interactively from your editor and execute pieces of code (that run in the browser) without any preliminary ritual, even without having to save the file.

                Or you'd run a curl command once and continue exploring the data - parsing slicing, dicing, grouping, sorting any way you like, or even have it visualized in the Portal tool with charts and graphs.

                Look, I'm currently writing tests for a thing, while my IDE is connected to a service running on a Kubernetes pod in the cloud - I can eval any function that affects the execution of the service, I can explore the db tables, change the routes and re-run the tests - all that without having to restart the pod, without having to deploy anything, without even having to save any files (if I don't have to).

                Lisp REPL-driven development gives you immediate feedback, allows you to modify and debug running programs on-the-fly, allows you to experiment, it's great for understanding language features interactively, and it's a real, tangible productivity boost - it's superb for rapid prototyping.

                > Interactivity is great, but it doesn't make up for the language itself.

                The language is what allows that great interactivity and exploratory programming. I mean, I get it - while it may initially appear challenging to read, much like how sigma notation for loops in mathematics can be difficult to comprehend, with practice it becomes intuitive. One wouldn't go to math.stackexchange to complain about sigmas and other mathematical symbols being unintuitive, would they?

            • lispm•8m

              Strange, I use Lisp and type to a REPL all the time. Now you tell me that is a feature of other languages, not of Lisp?

      • tincholio•8m

        It does take some patience, but once it clicks, it's just awesome.

    • matthavener•8m

      Hickey talks about readability of Clojure in this talk (timestamp at 6m40s) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxdOUGdseq4#t=6m40

    • dkersten•8m

      As someone who’s written a lot of Clojure and have been using it on and off since 2009, this looks like decent quality code to me.

      I think it’s just a familiarity thing. Clojure is different from most languages in that it’s a lisp and it’s immutable-first functional. That gives it a bit of a learning curve compared to other languages, but I find other simpler languages quite dificulte to read until I’m familiar with them, too.

    • freilanzer•8m

      > I find it extremely hard to read.

      Having a bit of Lisp experience (really not a lot), I find it very easy and elegant to read.

      > is it more natural read for people familiar with writing functional programs? (am I permanently "broken" due to my familiarity with imperative programing?)

      No, most people who say something like this are simply unwilling to invest an evening into a language they're not already familiar with.

    • •8m
      [deleted]
    • yas_hmaheshwari•8m

      >I wonder what the same Wordle example would look like in, say pure Flutter.

      Try this with ChatGPT, Claude or Gemini. All LLM's are really good with this translation tasks

    • indigo0086•8m

      not going to say you're wrong or right, but learning lisps/clojure fairly deeply you can find worse examples. Also when people learn it their mind tends to find it a very consistent langauge overall visually. I've moved on after a long stint in clojure to elixir and while I like it, most other language pale in language consistency.

    • boxed•8m

      The single space indent seems the most weird thing about that example...

    • gorjusborg•8m

      If you haven't used a Lisp-inspired language, yeah, it's going to seem different than all those imperative Algol-derived languages that have been popular for so long.

      I don't use Clojure professionally, but I've spent years using the language personally. It might be hard to believe, but it really is beautiful once you learn it, and extremely powerful as well.

    • diggan•8m

      I've done a bunch of Clojure development professionally and don't find that code extremely hard to read.

      One thing to add to what others have said, when you're met with code like this in the wild and you need to modify/add/remove something but don't have a 100% understanding yet, the common workflow is that you explore this code with your "evaluator" (basically a REPL connected to your editor).

      So if you come across snippets of code you don't understand very well, you place your cursor at the various forms and execute them. So you'll start at the inner forms, and slowly work your way outwards, and after that you've verified assumptions both about the function's internal workings and how you'll use it from the outside.

    • novagameco•8m

      Lisp becomes easier to read if you have an IDE plugin that removes opacity from parentheses

    • •8m
      [deleted]
  • dig1•8m

    Clojure and Flatlaf [1] tick all the boxes for me. If I want declarative-ish UI, I can always throw in Seesaw [2]. Everything else I find cumbersome, pulls tons of unnecessary dependencies and (usually) ends up abandoned in a year or two. With Swing, I know it is well-documented and will work for the next 30 years. But YMMV and I'm hoping that HumbleUI could be an exception.

    [1] https://www.formdev.com/flatlaf/

    [2] https://github.com/clj-commons/seesaw

    • iamcalledrob•8m

      Having worked with Swing recently, I worry that it will not work well on the near-distant future, because it feels frozen in time at about 2005.

      There are a lot of assumptions baked in that aren't holding up today.

      For example, high density and multi monitor aren't well supported. There's a bunch of stuff hard-coded in the JDK that no longer makes sense and you have to hack around.

      • lemming•8m

        I recommend using the JetBrains JRE, they have fixed lots of these sorts of issues, as well as greatly improved hot class reloading for development.

      • vips7L•8m

        I haven't worked with FX or Swing lately but I could have sworn they delivered hidpi support. Maybe in this JEP? https://openjdk.org/jeps/263

    • swarthy_avenger•8m

      FlatLaf is incredible and breathes new life into the Swing UI framework.

  • layer8•8m

    The readme says it is aiming for a “web look”, with no intention to make it look — and, presumably, behave — native. As a user, that’s not what I expect and hope for from a desktop application.

    • user432678•8m

      Following the author for some time and his main point is that “electron” won already, even despite the fact that the author himself doesn’t like it. And he’s not wrong. Majority of desktop users probably don’t care already if it’s native look or not (don’t cite me on that). The goal of the project to provide a way creating quite performant desktop apps with a DX of Clojure. And it’s a nice goal.

      • miroljub•8m

        There's no native app, even on desktops. There are a bazillion of different UI frameworks with different look & feel on Windows alone, even within Microsoft products. On Linux or macOS, the situation is no better.

        Native is what doesn't run in an emulator, in this case everything non-Electron fits the definition.

        • pxc•8m

          There are native apps, but appa are native to a desktop environment rather than to an operating system.

          Unfortunately desktop environments on some proprietary operating systems are themselves comprised of apps written with different toolkits and bearing different looks and feels. But that's just a problem specific to them. KDE apps are all maybe to Plasma, GNOME apps are all native to GNOME.

        • alternatex•8m

          WinUI 3 aims to be native, but of course Windows is a tapestry of many eras of Microsoft UI styles. If Microsoft doesn't again change their mind on how Windows should look, then WinUI 3 is indeed the look and behaviour that people will be expecting on a Windows machine.

      • pelagicAustral•8m

        I can relate (I think). I mean, I don't care what the general look of the app is, even if gimmicky of what native desktop looks, as long as the design, general aesthetic, and cohesion are kept well defined, structured and organized. I do not like Electron, I hate to have "little chromes" just so I can do X and Y. I crave true native apps, even if they still look kind of web'ish.

    • rafaelmn•8m

      At this point it feels like this argument is dead an buried. So many non-native apps on every platform, most platforms even have multiple official GUI toolkits/widget styles so even first party apps are inconsistent.

      • nine_k•8m

        The most consistently-looking desktop I have runs under Linux. With a few settings and a right theme, all GTK2, GTK3, Qt, and Java apps look and feel pretty much the same, in a pleasant way.

        MacOS is a close second, with a few native apps that can't decide exactly what a checkbox or a button should look like.

        And Win10 on my wife's machine is a salad, reminding me of Linux desktop experience from 1998.

        • diggan•8m

          > And Win10 on my wife's machine is a salad, reminding me of Linux desktop experience from 1998.

          This is pretty funny, because if you just use Gnome apps + desktop environment, you have a consistent experience. But if you only use Microsoft/Windows GUIs, panels and applications, it nowhere near as consistent.

          So even the Gnome team can build better UI and UX than Windows themselves can, pretty telling.

          • chrisldgk•8m

            > even the Gnome team

            People like to hate on them, but their design is actually really good, innovative and the applications running on GTK are incredibly fast and stable.

            • nine_k•8m

              I'm not a fan of some of their UX design decisions, but I must admit that they seemingly know what they're doing, and their execution / implementation is pretty good.

              I also hope that, unlike MS, they have no infighting between departments, and no stack ranking.

            • diggan•8m

              > People like to hate on them, but their design is actually really good

              I'm not complaining/hating, Gnome is my desktop environment of choice since some time ago.

              Was more a nod to how awful Microsoft seems to (still) be at UI and UX.

            • mixmastamyk•8m

              As long as you don’t use title bars, menus, or scrollbars you’re golden.

        • xmichael909•8m

          I couldn't agree more, and would even say more that Windows is just such a mess. Often even new windows programs look like they are from the days of Windows 98.

    • diggan•8m

      Professional software (think Clip Studio Art, 3DS Max, Autodesk Fusion and alike) are almost exclusively disconnected from "native" looks, behavior and theming, which is perfectly fine, better than having a different experience depending on your OS.

      I feel like it's mostly consumers who ask for native look, and particular users on macOS, as almost all other professional-oriented software doesn't offer that. But yet it comes up for every GUI toolkit that lands on the HN frontpage.

      • hombre_fatal•8m

        I doubt most consumers ask for a native look. It's more like an HN meme.

        I don't even think native macOS UI is so great cross-plat programs should target it. It's full of its own weird conventions like a "New item" button being a tiny "+" at the bottom of the left sidebar, the last place I always look.

        Safari is an example of UX that has stuck to hard macOS conventions and was always worse off for it. Not until recently did it begin relenting, and now it's bearable to use as a daily driver. Xcode is another classic example of hostile native macOS UX conventions. Finder.app is another.

        I'd rather software ask "what's the UX that makes the most sense?" rather than "how can I make my UI look native?" On HN people seem to think by solving the latter, you solve the former. But that isn't the case.

        • Bjartr•8m

          > I doubt most consumers ask for a native look. It's more like an HN meme.

          The preference for native look was once about the impact of familiarity on usability. When 95% of people's interactions with computers was a single OS and native apps, they would expect controls to look a particular way. They could figure out other variants, sure, but from a UX design perspective, there's little reason to add that minor cognitive overhead needlessly.

          Today, people's experiences are less likely to be monoculture like they once were, which dilutes one of the values of native controls. That's not to say designing with familiarity of controls in mind doesn't have value, just that it's less about, for example, buttons looking like buttons native to the OS, and more about visually reading as "this is a button" more generally.

        • ducktective•8m

          >I doubt most consumers ask for a native look. It's more like an HN meme.

          So you're ok with a mp3 player that takes 6 seconds to start up, is janky when it starts, takes 300MB of RAM, every row item is 100px high and every interaction with every UI element takes a noticeable delay on the order of 100x milliseconds?

          And you're gonna tolerate the same story with the file explorer app, the archive/zip app, the WiFi SSID selection dialog, etc?

          • Zak•8m

            This comment responds to the idea of native look being important with a list of performance issues. Whether software should be efficient and responsive is separate from whether it should look native to the OS it's running on.

            • Pet_Ant•8m

              Having a bespoke widget tool kit with themeing etc uses more memory and cycles instead of just being a simple app with the native desktop widgets.

              • klabb3•8m

                Even if that is true in the general case (it isn't necessarily - there are many factors), it’s a matter of what’s acceptable, not a race to 1000fps. If you build a webview based app (using eg tauri) I can assure you that it can be extremely snappy, <1% cpu while active and low memory, provided you use sensible dev practices like not import half of npm. Contrary to popular HN belief, web browsers are ridiculously optimized both in terms of rendering and JITed JS execution. The reason web based applications are often perf hogs is not because, but despite the execution environment. Businesses simply don’t prioritize perf, independent of platform.

                As an example, look at typical popular iOS apps: they’re often 100-500 Mb, even though they have absolutely no reason to be. LinkedIn is 400Mb, random airline app is 300Mb. Banking app? 350Mb.

                Is it bad to bundle Chrome and NodeJS? Yes, undoubtedly (but that’s already changing). Is that the only way to deploy web-based apps to desktop? No. Is native UI gonna fix it? Temporarily at best, while the platform’s native ecosystem is simply too small to cause that level of bloat.

              • xyc•8m

                VS Code vs XCode situation is an exact counter example of this. Non-optimized native apps could be that much slower than well optimized Electron apps.

                • Pet_Ant•8m

                  That's not an apt comparison because it could be the non-UI portion of that. VS Code would be even faster if it was a native app.

                  • xyc•8m

                    Not really. VS Code does have some performance optimizations where even the web browser optimization wouldn't suffice, for example it implements its own scroll bar instead of using the web native scroll bar. But for the most part the browser render optimizations is the crucial factor. After years of optimization you can't easily beat a web browser.

                    Native app is just another set of layers of abstractions. As a comparison, SwiftUI doesn't render 500 items quickly enough (https://www.reddit.com/r/swift/comments/18dlgv0/improving_pe...), which is a tiny number for web.

              • rafaelmn•8m

                Unless you think native UI runs on magic - it's not that hard to outperform native rendering - you have to be way less general with a bespoke framework (up to a certain point of complexity).

          • VertanaNinjai•8m

            What did any of your points have to with the topic of “native look”?

          • zem•8m

            that is precisely what people in this thread are talking about - users want native performance and memory footprint, they aren't concerned with native look and feel.

          • gaze•8m

            what are you talking about? Electron isn't the only tool to make non-native UI.

      • greener_grass•8m

        For Linux users it's a non-native look-and-feel or no app at all.

    • tonsky•8m

      It’s a tradeoff. You either make your app native but only for one platform, or you make it look “universal” and run on all three.

      • layer8•8m

        That’s not accurate, there are cross-platform toolkits that achieve at least a close-to-native look&feel. This is very different from giving up on it entirely and going web-style UI.

        • tonsky•8m

          If they use native widgets, they usually look really bad If they just “imitate” look and feel, they usually fall very short of the real thing

          Either way, it’s bad experience for the end user

          • cess11•8m

            I don't know, I think the Racket GUI toolkit and JavaFX work fine for building cross platform standalone applications.

            • tonsky•8m

              That’s two perfect examples! Racket seems to try to use native widgets, and looks horrible as a result, at least on macOS

              JavaFX uses the same approach as Humble UI: they draw all the widgets themselves and have custom cross-platform look and feel.

              We aim to be better quality version of JavaFX

        • kaba0•8m

          Do you mean the state of the art java AWT and/or Eclipse toolkit?

    • giancarlostoro•8m

      Isn't this the case with a lot of desktop GUIs that are cross platform?

      • layer8•8m

        Cross-platform desktop UI toolkits generally try to replicate a native look&feel as much as possible.

        • giancarlostoro•8m

          Do they? I can usually tell... Most cross-platform GUI stacks I've looked at, the app maybe tweaks the style slightly, but the behavior and look is mostly whatever its own interpretation is, or whatever the developer bothered to do.

  • roenxi•8m

    Really could use a link to the API docs in the README.md, it is a bit hard to judge when the "documentation" such as they have so far is sparse. But it is nice to see a newish UI project.

    I will say I've found Clojure to be a success story for doing GUI work. Projects like Dave Ray's seesaw (https://github.com/clj-commons/seesaw) are an amazing demo of how one man can rearchitect an API like Swing into something that is deceptively fun to use. High hopes that this project goes somewhere that is similarly enjoyable.

  • michaelsbradley•8m

    Cljfx is also worth a look!

    https://github.com/cljfx/cljfx

  • rlkf•8m

    I found this dimension of the analysis:

    > People prefer native apps to web apps

    > Java has “UI curse”: Looked bad

    to be at odds with this aspect of the design:

    > No goal to look native

    > Leverage Skia

    • socksy•8m

      "People prefer native apps to web apps" is talking about literally using an app on your desktop, in the dock, with keyboard shortcuts, rather than having a website in your browser. This is sort of shown by the amount of Electron apps people use — you could use slack, spotify, or vscode in the browser, but most people prefer to use the app.

      "Java has UI curse" is referring to how when Java tries to imitate native UI (note the difference to "native app", which is in contrast to a web app), it fails and hits the uncanny valley. No-one likes it.

      Given that, it's not a contradiction to have a native app, that does not try to use the native GUI toolkit of the host platform, using Skia directly to draw UI elements.

      • wry_discontent•8m

        I used a few electron apps in a browser because the Linux experience wasn't working well for me, and it was a dramatically better experience.

    • truculent•8m

      I suppose it’s just to clarify that those choices are deliberate, with the trade-offs in mind.

      The README also suggests that the reason why people prefer native apps isn’t just the UI’s aesthetics, but:

      > Normal shortcuts, icon, its own window, file system access, notifications, OS integrations

  • zombiwoof•8m

    I love this. Clojure will be perfect for this.

    Per the other comment, might do less dunking

  • hyperhello•8m

    Question about native integration. Does the framework support documents on a native level? Can I define a file type that opens the app when double clicked, maintaining the windows and data, etc?

    • tonsky•8m

      Not yet, but in theory, sure

  • Dansvidania•8m

    Does anyone close to the project know when/if it will no longer be in "No docs, and everything changes every day" release status?

  • cess11•8m

    What does it bring that https://github.com/cljfx/cljfx does not?

  • BaculumMeumEst•8m

    If only Clojure wasn't tied to the fucking JVM

    • askonomm•8m

      Doesn't have to be: see https://jank-lang.org/, https://babashka.org/

    • iLemming•8m

      Well, first of all, JVM, even though it still gets a lot of bad rap (mainly due to Java) turns out to be really nice piece of tech, especially if the aim is to scale CPU-intensive tasks.

      Besides - Clojure is not JVM-only, Clojure is a hosted language, it can work a top of different platforms: JS engine - Clojurescript; Flutter - ClojureDart; Native Code scripting - Babashka; NodeJS - nbb; .Net - Clojure CLR; Fennel even though technically is not a Clojure, is a lovely little language very similar to it and it works on Lua. There's also jank-lang, currently in development that works on top of LLVM. There are a bunch of other Clojure dialects - for Rust, Go, Python, Erlang, etc.

    • Dansvidania•8m

      may I ask what this sentiment comes from?

      I sincerely want to know what I am missing, because the fact that Clojure is hosted on the JVM (mainly) seems like a plus to me.

      I don't much like the build tools in the jvm environment such as maven or gradle, and the error messages could be better for sure. Is there more ugliness that I should look into?

      • BaculumMeumEst•8m

        What you said, plus applications use a ton of RAM and are a pain in the ass to distribute.

  • dzonga•8m

    where did the myth that people prefer apps that look native to the platform come from?

    There are two types of apps: 1. the ones that professionals use and 2. the ones that consumers use.

    for 1. they don't care if it looks native, as long as it works and is performant e.g. DAWs, Video Editing tools, Trading, etc.

    2. likewise I don't think it matters that much.

    my guess is the myth came from OS makers.

    • layer8•8m

      Native look&feel makes for a consistent UX across apps. Users learn one set of conventions and UI controls that uniformly applies to all applications. In addition, all applications benefit from enhancements made to the native UI toolkit and integration with the OS (input methods, file dialogs, keyboard navigation, automations, …).

      Moreover, web UIs tend to be less sophisticated and less power user friendly, due to HTML/CSS and browser API limitations. This unfortunately often carries over even to non-browser-based applications that however use a web-like UI.

      • regularfry•8m

        There's a slightly deeper part to this which is that if I see a native UI toolkit in use, I can be at least relatively confident that the accessibility affordances I expect to be there haven't been half-arsed in some custom widget set implementation. That's part of the "one set of conventions" expectation you mention, but it's an important one. There's a lot of embedded knowledge in native widgets.

      • novagameco•8m

        I don't personally believe it's ever been true that users want the same UI styling across apps. When given the option to customize the colors or layout of an app, users will do that. People want their applications to follow common UI patterns, but applications should have some kind of personality to them, otherwise they just look like Microsoft or Apple products

    • troupo•8m

      When apps have native look and feel, they have consistent behaviour, affordances and accessibility:

      - buttons are labeled and placed correctly, and respond to expected input (including secondary focus and secondary action on MacOS, for example)

      - dropdowns/selects behave correctly, and respond to expected input (for example, you can type to select in MacOS dropdowns).

      - windows have OS-defined areas for drag/resize, for titles, for toolbars etc. They also appear correctly in the OS's window management tools (app switchers etc.)

      - text inputs use the OS-default shortcuts and have access to OS-provided tools (e.g. spell checker)

      - controls and windows respond correctly to keyboard and mouse. E.g. for a while Apple's own Catalyst apps didn't have the standard Cmd+Q to close the app. Many custom modals do not dismiss the modal on Escape

      - context menus are standard in the places where you expect standard context menus. Well, app menus, too.

      And the list just goes on and on.

      • tonsky•8m

        All good points, all true. But what’s also true is that current trend is to come up with arbitrary-looking controls even on apps made by Apple themselves. Nobody knows what native is supposed to look like. I’m not saying it’s good, it’s just what is happening.

    • arzig•8m

      An anecdote:

      I don’t care if things look native, however I am actively repulsed by modern web design trends.

    • sussmannbaka•8m

      It comes from macOS users, really. On windows nothing looks native because nobody can make sense of what native looks like in current-year. On Linux, lol. Lmao. On macOS? Your app better is native because it will stick out like a sore thumb if it isn’t and I won’t use it.

  • sieabahlpark•8m

    [dead]

  • webprofusion•8m

    Lol, checking out the readme. Dunking on stuff isn't what makes you an opinionated framework.

    • bena•8m

      I’ve gone over the readme, what part would you say is them dunking?

      Like, honest question, I do agree with most of their points and don’t think they’re presenting them in a too harsh way