pabs3•1y
Bluesky Is Not Decentralizedbeige.party
208 comments
  • pfraze•1y

    Read this: https://atproto.com/articles/atproto-for-distsys-engineers

    AT Protocol works like the Web, where each user is a website and each application is a search engine. The apps crawl the network of hosts and aggregate activity. We have over 100 outside hosts and at least 3 aggregating apps out there. It’s a different model than ActivityPub, which is more akin to email.

    We never said no algorithm. I don’t know where that meme comes from. We have an open system for algorithms, which we and 3p devs can operate. We have a default algorithm for every user called Discover. It was one of our main concerns to have an answer to algorithms in a decentralized network.

    For DID PLC, the likely solution is to move the registry into a nonprofit which will maintain it, similar to ICANN. We also support the Web DID method, and if folks like this remain concerned we’re open to other DID methods. It’s important, but roughly similar to DNS or TLS issuers; supporting infra to the application network.

    • IoI_xD•1y

      > We never said no algorithm. I don’t know where that meme comes from.

      It comes from the people who don't know what an algorithm is but heard that Twitter has it and it's making them doomscroll so it's bad

      (which is not to defend Twitter or other social media's algorithms, but to say that some people seem to have a blind hatred of them entirely due to misconceptions)

      • miki123211•1y

        And to be extra clear, "only show posts from people I follow, in chronological order" is an algorithm.

        • gary_0•1y

          We're also using an algorithm right now on HN, to sort comments and posts by freshness, votes, and reply count (plus manual moderation fairy dust sprinkled by dang and friends). Some people have even criticized it or dislike it, because everyone has different criteria for things they want to see.

          It's easy to forget there's a gray area between "unsorted feed of all posts" and "nothing but insane rage-bait to maximize ad views".

          • miki123211•1y

            And from my personal Mastodon experience, "unsorted feed of all posts" also tends to collapse towards ragebait when reposts / retweets / boosts exist.

            Instead of having an explicit algorithm to do the work of surfacing ragebait posts, that work is done by the users themselves.

            What is notable, though, is that things don't necessarily have to be that way, in my experience, the Polish Mastodon community does far less of this than the English one.

          • eru•1y

            Funny enough, depending on your exact definition of 'algorithm' either essentially everything you can do on a computer is an algorithm or there some weird and annoying exceptions.

            For example many definitions include the requirement that an algorithm has to terminate for every input. And I suspect that there are probably some bugs lurking somewhere in the HN codebase that make it go into the occasional infinite loop. So technically it's not an algorithm by definition.

            (And even weirder, because I just suspect it might have those bugs, but I don't know for sure, I have to admit that I don't know whether HN is powered by an algorithm.)

            I agree with you that for practical definitions we can go by a definition that's essentially: 'by algorithm we just mean "computer program", but we want to focus on the abstract things it's doing, and not details of the concrete implementation.'

            • j_maffe•1y

              In the context of social media, algorithms specifically mean recommendation algorithms that try to curtail the feed for end users. It is much more specific than the abstract definition of algorithms.

            • BlueTemplar•1y

              Using neural networks IMHO falls outside of the definition of an algorithm, because then it becomes something that not even its authors are able to inspect (understand/explain). (Which in some contexts is a legal requirement.)

              • eru•1y

                Which definition of algorithm are you using here?

                The formal definition of algorithm doesn't really require that a human can inspect them, nor understand nor explain, or does it?

                > (Which in some contexts is a legal requirement.)

                That's another can of worms. Which contexts are you talking about?

          • j_maffe•1y

            Yeah this is a more nuanced view that I find quiet true. Any algorithm has emergent properties that can make the resulting feed be healthy to consume or not. The issue is that these objectives simply don't align with the objectives of these companies. HN deliberately tries to avoid this kind of feed which is why it mostly works.

        • squarefoot•1y

          That's so true. Could we then use a new word, say malgorithm to denote algorithms that don't work in the interests of users? Just as with we did with malware?

          btw: The Malgorithm does actually exist, and ironically is the name of a electronic music device that applies bit-crushing (undersampling and/or bit resolution reduction) effect to audio signals, that is, it mostly makes the signal sound worse although it can be used creatively, which however occurs very rarely in pop music.

          • lifthrasiir•1y

            I think the "user-uncontrolled" or possibly "user-oblivious" algorithm (if you believe that the mere controllability is not enough) is a clear enough term.

        • kalleboo•1y

          In common usage, there is a distinction between "an algorithm" and "the algorithm". The latter is often shortened to "the algo".

          • lobsterthief•1y

            I’ve never heard this before in my 20+ years of software engineering. Perhaps this is within the context of a conversation.

            • kalleboo•1y

              Yes this is in the context of normal human beings talking about their lives on social networks, not engineers.

              Like when people get a random post or video served to them they found interesting they'll say "the algo decided I should see this today"

              Content creators will discuss what they need to create for "the algo" to like and promote them.

        • j_maffe•1y

          I'm sorry but your comment comes across as very pedantic. In the context of social media, people mean highly optimized algorithms for maximum retention.

          • flancian•1y

            I respectfully disagree, I think it makes sense to stress the distinction. Along the lines of: let's reclaim 'algorithm' from the entities that made the word into a bad thing for so many.

            • famahar•1y

              It would be nice to make the term more neutral again. Many people feel like they have no control over the rules of an algorithm they interact with. I like how Bluesky gives complete control back to the user. First step in changing how people feel about the term is showing how it can provide a more pleasant experience and be less of a scary black box.

            • j_maffe•1y

              It is indeed a bad thing when the algorithm's objective is to manipulate the end user. It's dangerous and can (and has) lead to abuse. Also, there's no need to "reclaim" anything. I don't think anyone mistakes criticisms of algorithms in social media to the ones doing sorting in Excel.

      • arromatic•1y

        You expressed it perfectly in word which i couldn't. People's hate for algorithm is so weird . Without the algorithm they can never find quality or content they are interest in .

        • dbspin•1y

          Absolutey rock hard disagree. I'm old enough to remember when twitter and facebook used to both have a chronological feed without algorithmic sorting. Facebook (trash today of course) was an incredibly useful way to find out what your friends were doing on a given day by just reading the chronological feed. You could also trivially see which events were going on in your locality and which friends were attending. At the same time (2005 - 2012) Twitter was an incredible resource for real time news and reactions to what was happening. Without clickbait, commercial promotion or flame (culture) wars. The web pre-agorithm was gradually being subsumed by feed readers like Google Reader, where you'd browse longform articles and blog posts from people you'd found or been recommended by friends. There was no shortage of content. What was absent was 'brainrot', engagement bait, and all the vapid fluff that the 'algorithms' (tweaked entirely and completely to maximise engagement and advertising consumption - not to your preference) provide.

          • lukan•1y

            To quote the sibling content:

            "And to be extra clear, "only show posts from people I follow, in chronological order" is an algorithm."

            Apparently people understand different things by "algorithm". I also use the general one and not "algorithm" as a special algorithm that tries to find things I might like based on my past interactions, but mainly tailored to keep my engagement high so I watch more ads"

            I would like the possibility of creating and tweaking my own algorithm for my feed.

            • Certhas•1y

              Yes, algorithm (as used today) has different meaning in different contexts.

              People here are wilfully ignoring the proper context and meaning of the term as used, even though no one has any trouble understanding what is meant. You even spelt it out perfectly, demonstrating that there isn't any genuine miscommunication happening:

              > "algorithm" as a special algorithm that tries to find things I might like based on my past interactions, but mainly tailored to keep my engagement high so I watch more ads".

            • fireflash38•1y

              Treat the word algorithm as a "magic black box". Because that's what it is, 90% of the time. It could be that chronological sort. It could be a rage engagement sort. People don't know. It's not a consistent thing either, since pretty much every social site out there that people use is constantly tweaking it, A/B testing it, or having it modify itself to an extent (that is, I assume randomness is built in).

              I do think the internet would be a better place with more openness about those magic black boxes, even if it's just an ability to tweak it yourself without having to do some arcane incantations and rituals (ever gotten your YouTube recommendations completely fucked? How do you unfuck them?).

            • dbspin•1y

              You've missed two key points

              > I would like the possibility of creating and tweaking my own algorithm for my feed.

              This would be really useful, and I think actually should be a right - like data portability. However it doesn't address the issue with the default view not being linear, and hence breaking the utility of such services as a public or community notice board.

              > "And to be extra clear, "only show posts from people I follow, in chronological order" is an algorithm."

              An algorithm is being used to serve content in that context, but content is not being removed, substituted, inserted or filtered by an algorithm in (the platonic version) of displaying a linear chronological feed. The are the issues which 'the algorithm' has been criticised for in the modern context. If we can acknowledge that's the intended usage here then we can move beyond semantics.

              What happened on Facebook in 2012 is that Facebooks product changed from being one that served the affordance 'connecting people', to one that effectively divided people and charged to connect them in more limited ways. The impact of that one change (on FB and mirrored on other services) in creating the sensitisation and polarisation which followed, as well as removing the one major utility of social networks beyond pure entertainment, cannot be overstated.

          • kalleboo•1y

            I also remember when Facebook originally added their algorithmic timeline.

            At the time everyone was complaining that Facebook was just "people posting their lunches" and from that PoV I thought it was a great addition to promote the things people found important in their lives instead of the noise.

            Of course that didn't last long.

            • dbspin•1y

              I was in college at the time, and the wall went from incredible social affordance to spambait advertising platform essentially overnight. It's likely that the 'people posting their lunches' weren't leveraging the platform to its best utility. Either way the change literally made the kind of passive socialising use I've described above impossible. No replacement has emerged in the years since, which really surprises me. Since location aware social networks existed in the mid-2000s, which is now, checks notes - twenty years ago.

        • suprjami•1y

          The hate is for algorithms which fill your feed with useless shit that you didn't ask for, at the expense of things you did ask for, and which is intended to manufacture rage to get you commenting and arguing with others so the social network can shove an ad in your face.

          That's the only kind of algorithm people have been exposed to, so they hate the term.

        • newsclues•1y

          The hate isn’t weird, it is earned!

          One of the most important algorithms, google search, has become crap. Social media algorithms have become crap.

          Average people hate “the algorithm” because it was a trusted friend(ly tool) ands it has become crap and betrayed them!

          If we, technologists, want people to love and use algorithms, we have a duty to avoid making them become horrible or useless for people.

        • Certhas•1y

          That seems like wilfully ignoring what people are upset about by insisting on a superficial and literal reading of their complaints.

    • rsolva•1y

      The OP does not take issue with the algorithm part, but the claim of decentralization. I'm currently running my own instance of an ActivityPub server (GoToSocial), just for me, and it works like a charm. I would not know how to do the same with BlueSky, and I have tried to understand how.

      • pfraze•1y

        If you’re trying to self host your account, you follow https://atproto.com/guides/self-hosting

        If you’re trying to build an application, you follow https://atproto.com/guides/applications

        If you’re looking to run the bluesky application, you need to run the codebases in https://github.com/bluesky-social.

        • Matl•1y

          If mastodon.social shuts down tomorrow, my own instance continues to operate fully independently.

          For PDS is that true? If bsky.app shuts down, will my PDS be able to function as an independent instance incl the web frontend etc.?

          • steveklabnik•1y

            A PDS is an independent data store of everything you’ve done with atproto. If bsky.app shuts down, and you’ve self hosted your PDS (or created one and migrated your records over by replaying them from the network) you could spin up your own copy of bsky and continue on as normal.

            • apitman•1y

              The main caveat to this currently is that someone would have to run an alternative to https://plc.directory, and everyone else would have to agree which one to switch to. I'll be a lot more comfortable with atproto once the directory has moved to a non profit like ICANN (as @pfraze mentions), or a different DID method gains wide adoption.

              • stevenicr•1y

                Is this a thing that is easily discoverable in settings where people can choose to use a different directory? OR is this buried and hard to find or know it could be a thing?

                • Natanael_L•1y

                  It's currently built into the applications, not configurable by default. It's preferable if everybody in a thread / space / community uses the same one because otherwise differences can cause validation failures and conflict and thus break threads, resulting in that people can't follow many discussions, thus applications don't really expose it.

                  It's the kind of thing where it's preferable that either everybody switch at once, or that new applications with different "lexicon" (post types / social media format) picks a new default from the start.

                  • stevenicr•1y

                    That's too bad, it made me think if there were easy to switch user perferences then it would be truly decentralized..

                    Is there a way to clone the app and make this easy to find as a button to switch?

                    (unfamiliar with the licensing and the app in general, some things I have seen make me excited that it's possible to be uncensored and decentralized, then things like this come up and I wonder if I should put time into it or something else to promote)

                    • Natanael_L•1y

                      Everything is open source so yes you can, it's mostly a question of practicality.

                      There's already third party clients, account hosting servers, etc, as well as different apps building on the same system (and which can use the same accounts and data store!) like blogs and more. Most devs are trying to coordinate their custom extensions so it doesn't cause conflict.

                      If it weren't coordinated we'd easily end up in the same place as Mastodon with their spurious server blocks where large parts of conversations are broken for most users.

                      • stevenicr•1y

                        I'd love more info about "Mastodon with their spurious server blocks where large parts of conversations are broken for most users." - who and why that happens and what it looks like to the different users that have servers blocked or what not.. is it clear they are missing messages that are from blocked servers?

              • steveklabnik•1y

                Yeah this is a good point, I was thinking purely about those two parts of the service, but if bsky is gone, then plc.directory would be too. Thanks.

        • rsolva•1y

          Thanks, it's been a while since I last looked into it.

          Will my self-hosted account be able to talk directly to other self-hosted BlueSky accounts?

          • pfraze•1y

            Yep!

            • yewey•1y

              and will a bunch of hostile feminists be able to place derogatory "labels" on my self hosted account or put me on nasty and rudely named lists branding me a right winger or a transmysoginist or whatever like they currently do on bluesky?

              • afiori•1y

                My understanding is that users and third-parties can offer various moderation services that users can subscribe to.

                So anyone can label/mislabel/ban/block anyone else, but everyone can chose whose labels/mislabels/bans/blocks to follow

              • slater•1y

                If you are any of those things, it doesn't hurt to warn others! hth

              • stjacobs•1y

                [dead]

      • brianolson•1y

        If you want to dedicate a VM to it, bsky Personal Data Server has a pretty easy install

        https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds

    • jauntywundrkind•1y

      Thanks Paul & all.

      I also enjoyed Brian Newbold 's post from early August taking inventory of how Bluesky is doing so far at being decentralizable, and what's remaining,

      https://bnewbold.net/2024/atproto_progress/

      There's some wildly negative often wildly in my view inaccurate posts down below slinging all kinds of things. So much of it is so wildly off base.

      Atproto dev has a ton of strong wins already, and there's been a massive influx of dev interest in the past few weeks. Really looking forward to seeing this ecosystem bloom. I feel like we are at an inflection point.

    • Matl•1y

      > For DID PLC, the likely solution is to move the registry into a nonprofit which will maintain it, similar to ICANN.

      ICANN is rather centralized. This is the biggest concern I have with ATProto, I would have expected it to work over P2P i.e. IPNS, or even some sort of a blockchain rather than a centralized web server.

      • packetlost•1y

        It's not really possible to avoid bootstrapping on a centralized authority in general, and DNS seems like a mostly reasonable backstop for that. As others have said, you can make your own DNS network and people have.

      • dartos•1y

        I central authority with escape hatches is okay, I think.

        One could start their own DNS server with different records than the ICANN ones, thus ignoring their authority.

        As long as that possibility exists, it’s fine.

        • Matl•1y

          The problem being that once that single authority becomes 'the standard' getting anyone to switch/use any alternative becomes almost impossible

          There are many alternatives to (ICANN) DNS, but since none have support built into major browsers, they end up being a pain to use, which hampers adoption.

          The most successful is probably the Onion network and that's far from mainstream.

          • dartos•1y

            I don’t think there’s a way to avoid that kind of zipf curve when it comes to “mainstream” as it’s rarely the technical merits that makes something mainstream. The network effect is very strong.

            It’s usually the force of large, powerful (or early) organizations.

            Realistically I’m okay with a single overwhelming popular entity as long as I, as an individual, can choose have my alternative.

    • evbogue•1y

      Yes, of course Bluesky is federated. The hosts hold onto your keypairs. The DID:PLC is a substring of your first hash.

      For those of you who are interested in solving this my first suggestion is to read the Scuttlebot docs which are still up at: https://scuttlebot.io/

      Sometimes I think about a retro Scuttlebot revival. If you want to set sail on this kind of project, contact info is in my bio.

      • selecsosi•1y

        Always liked the ssb protocol and had an account but am just not much of a poster to ever add much value. Appreciate the design and open build process. Been following for a long time, hope you are doing well

        • evbogue•1y

          Thanks! I'm well. Yes, Scuttlebot's offline-firstness and the friend of a friend replication strategy were ahead of their time.

    • Matl•1y

      To me the biggest problem with ATProto is to discover the current location of a user, you query https://web.plc.directory/resolve which is a centralized service

      Second biggest is that while a PDS does decentralize the data, I belive bsky.app is still the place providing the 'frontend' that makes it all work.

    • Orthographic•1y

      (I've updated this post as I've learned more).

      Thank you. ATProtocol is really cool, but I share some concerns about the centralized resolution of identities to custom servers and the conflict of interest in Bluesky's stewardship of ATProtocol development (what is good for the ATProtocol Network vs what is good for Bluesky).

      If I understand Bluesky correctly:

      When you follow users on Bluesky (even those on a hosted custom server), atprotocol allows you to follow them by a "URL" (DID:web) but by default you're following them by their DID:PLC, a kind of Decentralized Id that is resolved via an equivalent to a "name server" (see: https://github.com/did-method-plc/did-method-plc).

      You give that name server a DID json representing a user you want to follow or are following, it will tell you the IP of the (custom atproto) server where that user's posts and replies are. By default Bluesky apps only know about PLC nameservers that are in Bluesky's registry.

      And so even if I'm using custom hosting if Bluesky PLC nameserver delists my DID (or the nameserver that points to me?) most bluesky users will be unable to find me.

      Bluesky is theoretically interested in moving this nameserver under a nonprofit consortium structure - where no one entity could prevent a nameserver from being listed - but no one is working on it, and BlueSky for years hasn't gotten around to it.

      My questions are:

      1. Is that right, or are there any promising nascent efforts to create a nameserver registry under a consortium structure?

      2. Is it fair to ask users, potential users and developers to take it as an article of faith that BlueSky will fully support and partner with such a consortium (since it hasn't helped set one up already in the years of its development)?

      3. If Bluesky has features that are not being "backported" to ATproto, does this not raise concerns about Bluesky's conflict of interest in its current stewardship of ATProtocol? One could imagine a situation where Bluesky "slow walks" contributions to ATProto out of its own private company interest in keeping its userbase on Bluesky servers.

      • steveklabnik•1y

        I don’t work for bsky, but pay a lot of attention:

        1. Basically, yeah. That said, I still think it may be a bit early to do this. A consortium would be useful if it was meaningfully independent of bsky, so you need to grow and gain interest first. Otherwise the “independent group” would be run by the same people, which is pretty meaningless. Plus, working on that means les time for working on other things. I would expect to see this happen once there’s another non-toy atproto application, and for representatives from it to be involved too. Before then feels premature to me, but I can appreciate others may feel differently.

        2. I do. The team has continually set out a vision, and then executed on it, over and over. Including following through on things that actively reduce their control over things. Tons of folks asked a similar question previously: “they’re saying that you’ll be able to host your own PDS someday, but do you trust them to actually ship that and not just say they’re gonna a do it and put it off forever and keep control?” And then they shipped it.

        3. Any application has semantics built on top of the underlying protocol: that’s what an application is, in some meaningful sense. But I do agree that without independent governance for atproto, doing things like that could stifle other users of atproto, sure. We’re back in the same realm as 1, imho. I’m following the devs of various other apps and none of them have expressed that they think bsky is hoarding the goods so far, at least.

    • •1y
      [deleted]
    • kristo•1y

      I don’t understand what the naysayers want? They want an app that is decentralized, completely free, uses nothing remotely related to crypto, doesn’t serve ads, and where it starts day 1 with a robust ecosystem of applications using it.

      These people are just winging for followers IMO.

      • badgersnake•1y

        A social network that’s not controlled by, or potentially controlled by a billionaire.

        The traits required to become a billionaire are not the traits required to run a social network. This should be obvious by now. Zaphod Beeblebrox had no actual power for a reason.

      • •1y
        [deleted]
      • meibo•1y

        I think you just described the fediverse. The naysayers want you use to use the fediverse instead of centralized crypto stuff.

      • Aeolun•1y

        I mean, I very much desire the ‘not crypto’ part of that. All the rest is optional. Facebook is better than crypto.

      • j_maffe•1y

        Bro you literally just described Mastodon.

  • pxoe•1y

    Mastodon is not decentralized, it's federated. It doesn't solve some of the problems that come with centralization, it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server). And funnily, it doesn't even solve data portability entirely (you can't actually move your posts). Mastodon's "decentralization" is even worse than a "theoretical promise" of one, cause it's a just marketing promise when it literally just does not work that way in some aspects. You're still "centralized" to whatever server you signed up on, still with caveats that an actual centralized service would have. It's better, but it's truly not all it's made out to be. Definitely not to the point where such sneer and kind of just, speculatively making shit up, wouldn't look just ironic.

    • toofy•1y

      > it just creates more entities that will have the same problems (being at will of a server).

      this isn’t a “problem” that needs to be solved. you’re not “at the will of the server” in a federated environment, its the actual literal opposite. if i don’t like the server operators or if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like.

      this is a good thing, not a “problem.” the ability to freely move and the freedom to associate is incredibly important. and for some weird reason people keep pretending like these things aren’t important if it’s online. its ridiculous.

      if i don’t want to spend my play time around eric, i should absolutely be able to move and play somewhere else without eric. that’s actual freedom. if you try to keep me in one place or force me to play with eric, you’re trapping me.

      no, the ability to pick and choose how, why, where, and with who i spend my free time is important, its not a “problem”. that’s agency, and i wish people would quit arguing against agency and calling it a problem.

      • lukan•1y

        "if i don’t like the servers it federates with, that’s totally ok. i start my own and federate with who i like."

        So everytime you move, can you take your existing network and posts and messages with you, or do you have to start from scratch every time?

        • ttepasse•1y

          You can take your existing network with you, Mastodon has Accounts redirects and follower migrations. Your own content not yet. While Mastodon-the-software has an export function, there is no import as yet. But that is a solvable problem.

          https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/

          • echoangle•1y

            Does the migration also work if the server I’m migrating from actively wants to prevent me from taking over my stuff? If they ban me from their server because they don’t like me, they aren’t going to set up a redirect for me, right? Is this a real thing that happens?

            • toofy•1y

              im not the person you responded to, but i think this worry is mostly just overblown. i dont think most people have this concern. i think some do, but not most.

              if its something you're super worried about, you could always do what ive seen some folks do and just like docs, photos, etc..., make a backup. just create a mirror federated account with same follows etc...

              its not really something i personally have a need for. to me, the worst that happens is i lose some conversations i had with some friends. i cant remember the last time i looked back at some random tweet i made 3 years ago or whatever...

              • hoidofyolen•1y

                the issue is that this is a little myopic when thinking about identity. Your instance server in ActivityPub holds your identity, so when you change servers by mirroring or whatever method, you're giving up your old identity and taking on a copy. That identity part is crucial because if you want to, for example, do OAuth with ActivityPub, your old server technically owns an identity of yours that's just as valid as your new one. It's better on atproto because your identity is always your own (with the caveat that it's currently managed by Bluesky's https://plc.directory, but like they've said, they're working to move this outside the company). ActivityPub will never give you true account portability unless they do something like atproto and allow identity portability. Atproto allows this already. You can move your PDS (where your data is hosted, and the thing that controls access to OAuth) to a new one whenever you want.

        • toofy•1y

          well my comment was specifically pointing out that giving someone agency is the opposite of “a problem.” i was pointing out that having options to spend your freetime how and where you like is the literal opposite of forcing you to “the will of a server” or whatever their statement was.

          to your comment, the ability to keep posts and such is going to vary by which system you’re using, for example:

          - twitter, absolutely not. they want to force you to spend your free time around whoever they say. and they absolutely want to make it difficult for you to have freedom to leave or the freedom to associate. in the before times there were sites you could use to move your contacts and follow the same people on Mastodon. elon hated the idea of people having freedom so he shut that down shortly after he took power. for this reason i recommend people start manually building their contacts on other sites now so the move will be easier once you’re ready.

          - threads, im not familiar enough with it yet to say for sure. i have a couple of accounts there but honestly, ill never use them, its zuckerberg… facebook… no thanks. been burned too many times by these people.

          - Mastodon, almost entirely yes. you can backup and download both your posts and your contacts. i dont worry too much about it, but if it’s something you’re super worried about just do like we all do with photos, docs, etc… keep a backup. i know some people keep a backup federated account mirroring follows, etc… for worst case scenarios. i occasionally download my follows and posts, but im not really too worried about it.

          - bluesky, yep. i love blue sky but for different reasons from Mastodon, i use them both all day long. just for different reasons. blue sky doesn’t at all have the same quality of community as Mastodon or even hn. it’s nice, but its not community focused. its more like twitter before eternal september took over. at the end of the day tho, i don’t have a lot of hope for it, the VC people will definitely figure out a way to ruin it.

          but to bring it back to my original comment: the important part is that we have the agency to utilize freedom of movement and association. it should creep you out when someone tries to convince you that having agency is a problem. having freedom to jump from place to place, server to server, community to community is a good thing and its crazy when these people keep attempting to convince us that jumping around is "a problem".

          when someone tries to force you to spend your playtime somewhere you don’t want to be, or when they try to convince you “no, you should want to be around eric especially when he’s a dickbag.” that should make your hair stand up with red flags. and that’s what these people have been trying to convince us for years—“noooo, why would you want to spend your free time somewhere else having fun? dont go enjoy yourself! you want to be here! no one here likes each other and everyone is screaming at each other! thats what you really want to do with your freetime!”

          • pxoe•1y

            "backing up" and data takeouts are not data portability, cause with mastodon you can't actually move posts between servers. so it's like, literally what's the point if you cannot actually move your content and it's gonna be a flush and start new again, which in that regard is no different than moving from one proprietary platform to another

            • toofy•1y

              sure, i can see why some might worry about this but like i said in a different comment, for me, most social media, ability to go back and reference years old random conversations just isn’t of any kind of critical “identity”. more important to me is just having a reference of who i’m mutual friends with.

              other than some family pictures on insta, i can’t remember the last time i’ve gone back and looked at old conversations. i can imagine why some people might need that, but for Mastodon i mostly use it for chatting with friends or light ephemeral type stuffs.

              • pxoe•1y

                for artists, content creators, their posts are literally their body of work. this is why people don't move away from twitter, for example - while the audience is important, having posts there is also just as important if not more, cause these posts are the thing that brought in the audience in the first place, and may continuously bring in the audience thru people browsing profiles and sharing/reposting.

                besides whatever the content of posts might be, not treating it like 'a part of your identity' when it is literally a reflection of it, i don't know, seems a little dismissive of yourself, but if that's your prerogative, sure. it's super not the same for everybody. for some people, their stuff is either more important to them personally regardless of what it is, or it holds more value with the amount of work put into it, or both.

                it's a little bit obtuse to look at platforms filled with posts, and then go and think that those posts are of no value, when it is literally the point and the core of those platforms, don't you think. like, you don't have to imagine. just look at those places that are filled with art and artists, content and creators.

    • rtpg•1y

      "Being at will of a server" is always a problem, but with federation you can choose which server you are at the will of. You still need trust, but that trust can be chosen by you based off of your needs (and that trust can be placed in yourself). You're on a different part of the trust gradient.

      Meanwhile there's a certain quality of service that can be obtained with "mere" federation that is much tougher for many decentralized strategies. The actual topology matters, but federation is a pretty decent model IMO! There's a reason that e-mail has been so useful as a system for so long!

      • lifthrasiir•1y

        And the federation also made the spam email problem a lot worse ;-)

        Anyhow, federation should be seen as a part of specific strategy for decentralization; federation itself is not decentralization and cannot achieve it without more bits---like topological consideration. Many federated protocols tend to push those bits into the horizon and fail at scale when that horizon eventually approaches, while ATProto is at least explicitly constructed with eventual decentralization in the mind and seems to be fine for now. Mastodon will need to prove much more than ATProto in order to show that it's capable for eventual decentralization in contrast.

        • davexunit•1y

          Saying the fediverse is not decentralized is a wild take.

          • lifthrasiir•1y

            My assumption is that the fediverse is seek to replicate what was already possible in the centralized manner---a large-scale social network in this case. Mastodon is of course decentralized by nature, but but it is not yet a decentralized social network under my assumption because it doesn't fully demonstrate a large-scale social network right now. To be clear, neither does ATProto/BlueSky right now! But scaling a social network is shown to be hard even without decentralization and it seems more likely that Mastodon would hit the scaling issue earlier than ATProto. That's what I meant by "capable for eventual decentralization".

            One particularly visible weakness of Mastodon is that there is no working and efficient mechanism to operate on the entire network. Searching and algorithmic feed [1] would be major features affected by this weakness. I know some consider this to be intentional, but if that's true then Mastodon can't be really said to replicate a social network at all. It is yet another matter whether such features are warranted or not, but if we believe that something like a worldwide social network should exist, then we don't yet have a clear answer that a social network without such features would be technically or socially scalable to that extent, so not being able to fully replicate an existing social network is important enough to consider.

            [1] This includes trivial feeds like all posts from my followers, because in my knowledge a large number of follows is not really scalable in Mastodon.

      • llm_trw•1y

        We've gone from digital totalitarianism to digital feudalism.

        This does not seem like an improvement.

        • Terr_•1y

          Perhaps manorialism rather than feudalism, which implies certain bidirectional duties.

          It may not be a huge improvement when identities and posts can't be migrated, but it's still an incremental one.

          • rtpg•1y

            While I don't really know about posts being migrated, identities at least can be migrated in the common circumstance of someone simply wanting to change providers and the old host being willing to hold onto the "moved" record for long enough

        • rtpg•1y

          I don't think that is correct? You can spin up your own instance and do stuff on it. The fact that some people want to share their resources isn't feudalism.

    • a2128•1y

      A federated network is a decentralized network. You're probably thinking of distributed networks, which federation is not.

    • zimpenfish•1y

      > (you can't actually move your posts)

      You can export and import, I believe, for some instances but generically re-posting them to a new instance with the old date isn't currently feasible[0], correct.

      You also need to re-federate them to get the "links" correct (and probably de-federate the old) which causes confusing results if your client doesn't handle backdated posts correctly (and most of the ones I was using in 2023 didn't.)

      There's probably a solution[1][2] but I think it's something the ActivityPub people just haven't given much thought to just yet.

      [0] No date field in https://docs.joinmastodon.org/methods/statuses/#create

      [1] When I was importing a 10 year Twitter history to my Akkoma instance, I just tweaked the code to a) allow backdating posts, b) allow certain accounts to backdate posts and c) not federate backdated posts from those accounts. Doesn't really solve the full problem but worked for me.

      [2] Obviously there's other problems such as people creating fake history, etc., if you're allowed to post backdated statuses.

      • simgt•1y

        > [2] Obviously there's other problems such as people creating fake history, etc., if you're allowed to post backdated statuses.

        I don't think it's a problem really, but I may be mistaken about what the goal of these platforms is. I can also create a fake history on a blog or news site and backdate posts. But in the odd case where it matters, say for a copyright dispute or something, it'd be very hard to pretend that the history is legit and very easy to find clues that it is not.

        • zimpenfish•1y

          > I can also create a fake history on a blog or news site

          Without the implied "authority" of something like Mastodon[0] or Twitter[1], or Facebook, etc. though. You can (currently) point to a post on a $BIGNETWORK and say "I posted that then" and be credibly believed. If you allow backdated (or timestamp-edited) posts, that goes out of the window, surely.

          [0] Ok, not if you're running your own instance, obviously.

          [1] Who resisted adding editing for years for similar reasons.

    • davexunit•1y

      Federation is a form of decentralization. It has its issues but it doesn't mean it isn't decentralized. Moving towards distributed, peer-to-peer applications is the path forward.

  • its-summertime•1y

    > BlueSky's big claim is [they have] "no algorithm".

    https://bsky.social/about/blog/3-30-2023-algorithmic-choice Over a year ago, a blog claiming the opposite

    > But the actual BlueSky app does not implement DIDs. It's called "did-placeholder" on their github. It's a stub. It's TBD. It's not a feature, it's a feature request.

    AFAIK People with did:web dids can make accounts and use bluesky

    > And guess who just bought a seat on BlueSky's board with a $15M Series A round? That's right, a crypto vulture named Blockchain Capital.

    And one of the first investors was Jack Dorsey. They've used libraries and concepts that are only vogue amongst those with cryptography/cryptocurrency interests. This is not new, this is always been the case.

    - - -

    A person, any person, can join the relevant developer chats, or find and ask people who are working on or have brought up their own servers, about how centralized or decentralized bsky is, but that does not seem to be the case for this person's research.

    • davexunit•1y

      did:web is not a decentralized identifier. My understanding is that it was made for test suites but was taken out of that context for production uses.

      • its-summertime•1y

        While true, it aligns with did:web's goals with relation to services. Something the user can use to port themself across services, without the involvement of an app-specific discovery service.

        As a result, if did:web can be well integrated into bluesky itself (it works across AT Proto already AFAIK, just not all parts of Bluesky's GUI, a current pain point), that should open the path to add additional discovery mechanisms like IPNS

    • pxoe•1y

      what does have a "big claim" that they have "no algorithm" is mastodon, which says so on its joinmastodon.org page and in its instance blurb. which just so obviously could not even possibly be true.

      • cuu508•1y

        The news feed in Mastodon is chronologic, it includes all posts from the accounts you follow (and have not muted).

        • pxoe•1y

          it's not even the follows feed, but suggestions and explore with its sections. like, explore feed of posts is just straight up an algorithmic assembly of posts. (looking at mastodon.social, "the original server") the explore feed has a blurb about "how it ranks posts" which is literally next to their "no algorithms in sight" tagline. do they think their users are stupid? or are they just fine with making such obvious lies?

        • Kye•1y

          Chronological sorting is an algorithm. You don't hear its dissenters as much, but it's not without issue. It's not always the best way to present things.

          • j_maffe•1y

            Repeating my comment here because some people are deliberately stick manning this argument:

            > In the context of social media, people mean highly optimized algorithms for maximum retention.

            • alpaca128•1y

              There's nothing stopping a platform from being correct both ways by saying "we use no manipulative algorithm" or something along those lines. It may be pedantic to point out that "no algorithm" is wrong, but it is in fact wrong and it's not hard to communicate both clearly and correctly.

              • j_maffe•1y

                I agree that not using manipulative algorithms is the best, more nuanced, goal. However, most people would not trust such a statement from a platform with clear conflict of interest in manipulative algorithms. Chronological ordering is simple (and testable) enough that anyone can trust it is not tampered with in any way.

                • BlueTemplar•1y

                  It does help a lot that Mastodon is not a platform.

            • Kye•1y

              I don't know what "stick manning" is and I don't appreciate the claim I'm doing it deliberately when I don't even know what it is. Don't assume everyone who disagrees with you is some insincere agitator who's hip to whatever weird debate shibboleths you've glommed on to.

              I was simply informing you that:

              * Chronological is an algorithm

              * It, like all ways of sorting feeds, has its own controversies

              • relaxing•1y

                Making obtuse, pedantic statements makes you seem like an insincere agitator.

                • Kye•1y

                  So let's review.

                  pxoe: points out Mastodon has an algorithm

                  cuu507: says the news feed is chronological

                  me: reasonably inferring this means cuu507 isn't aware this is also an algorithim, I point out that it is, and that chronological feeds are also not without detractors with good arguments.

                  j_maffe: jumps up my ass from out of nowhere for some reason. I replied assuming they were the person I replied to (cuu507) since I don't really notice user names but no, they're just some random person on a mission to spread a quote.

                  I'm clear on things and am sure that I'm being sincere, not being pedantic, not agitating (on purpose), not being obtuse. I don't know what j_maffe's deal is since I said nothing to them before all this.

                  • relaxing•1y

                    Everyone here knows sort of any kind is an algorithm. And everyone knows when we speak of social media algorithms, we refer to the selective boosting or removal of content.

                    It is not helpful or necessary to point any of this out.

                    • Kye•1y

                      If the person I actually replied to found it unhelpful they can of course say something and we can have a nice, civil conversation about it where we both learn something.

                      There really isn't a polite way to say this, but it needs to be said: no one asked you. Or j_maffe. Neither of you accomplished anything by butting into a sub-sub-thread that didn't involve you and didn't need your antagonism and ill-tempered presumptions about my intent.

                      • j_maffe•1y

                        j_maffe here. Sorry if you found this insulting in any way. I wasn't referencing you in particular as several other comments pointed to the very obvious fact that chronological sorting is an algorithm so I was referring to this overarching theme.

                        However, the entire point of a forum is for users to "butt-in" on threads. If you didn't find the reply contributing anything meaningful, you're very much free to not reply. And if you don't like random people replying to your comments, you really shouldn't be using forums. cheers.

                        • •1y
                          [deleted]
  • openrisk•1y

    It is interesting that nobody comments on the "ownership" data point of the post.

    > And guess who just bought a seat on BlueSky's board with a $15M Series A round?

    Yet that is the only thing that matters.

    The technical pieces for a vast range of alternative designs for online interactions are already available. Decentralized, federated, distributed, peer-to-peer. Who cares? What matters is the outcome.

    What is entirely missing in these silly "protocol wars" is any concrete and realistic vision of what that "good next generation Web" looks like, not technically, but economically, socially and politically. Who gets empowered and who gets exploited. Who gets (and how strong) a voice and who gets manipulated by that voice.

    The prior norms, social contracts and institutions we used to have in the pre-digital era have been completely corrupted yet there is no visible replacement beyond some vague ideals.

    The shape of the "next gen web" very much depends on who funds it, why (what incentives and expectations do they have) and how (what incentives and expectations do they create to the vast ecosystems of developers, entrepreneurs, moderators, users, etc).

  • jrm4•1y

    Bluesky's claims to why they're better than anything always sound like crazy pill stuff to me.

    Other services both centralize identity AND algorithms/operations.

    This seems to centralize identity WITHOUT the second thing, which strikes me as the worst of both worlds.

    It's just, we've already mostly "solved" the centralized identity problem with EMAIL. As often, the key is "fail elegantly," not be bulletproof. Email, in it's federated state, allows for individuals to more or less choose what kind of centralization they want -- and more importantly, to kill and restart accounts if needed. Thus, Mastodon is the best parallel.

    What am I missing? What is the advantage of bluesky here?

    • hoidofyolen•1y

      I don't have the energy to put all of the advantages and argue for them here, but take a look at https://atproto.com and maybe look around at other blog posts and articles that contrast atproto and ActivityPub. Might just have to do some research, since it's been talked about ad nauseam already in other spaces.

      • jrm4•1y

        I promise I'm not intentionally trying to play gotcha or anything like that, but if you're literally unable to rattle off something in a short space, my skepticism only deepens?

    • relaxing•1y

      > What is the advantage of bluesky here?

      Fewer Nazis.

      • jrm4•1y

        Yeah, this is another issue entirely, but also very often wrong and misses the point.

        Roughly, e.g. -- Twitter (nope not calling it X) is still overwhelmingly the most useful and productive place for Black+US Politics discussion. Despite, or even perhaps because of, the presence of bad guys.

        The thing I hate the most about Mastodon (despite being the right model) is people trying to make it nice, but end up making it STERILE. The left leaning folks, who politically I generally strongly agree with, really do overdo it in terms of "shutting down disagreeable speech."

        (Bluesky is similar to Mastodon here)

        • relaxing•1y

          What’s some of this disagreeable speech you’ve been shut down on.

          • swed420•1y

            Yeah, it would have been more accurate for GP to say "liberal" instead of "left" since mastodon (and large parts of lemmy) have been overrun with liberals who label any leftist a "tankie"

            • jrm4•1y

              Oh no, I do mean that the lefties are the problem. They're the ones making it sterile. I'm glad the libs are pushing back.

              Disconnected keyboard lefties who don't touch grass calling me a Nazi because I also still use Twitter, being completely clueless as to the fact that a lot of Black folks like myself are still there because, well, we're used to surviving and thriving in hostile spaces.

              (and then also snowflake hard-left Black folks who -- and I've literally NEVER seen this in my life until Mastodon -- really do "play the race card." It's wild)

              • swed420•1y

                It sounds like you're using the liberal definition of leftist.

                • jrm4•1y

                  Probably?

                  • swed420•1y

                    In other words, what you call liberals probably are, but they're engaging with faux leftists who are just a different flavor of liberal, not actually left. If they were actually left, they'd be focusing on class based issues instead of amping up division with the race etc issues that you mentioned.

  • moffkalast•1y

    I'm not sure how we can get the point that a centralized seamless UX experience is core to any platform though the thick skulls of people designing decentralized federated services.

    Lemmy's active user number drops every month and as does Mastodon's by a lesser degree, both failing to get proper traction because they segment and wall off tiny gardens where nothing is happening, making sure that people waste time frequenting empty communities instead of merging it all together. Regardless of how the backend is handled, centralized or not, people need the same thing on the frontend. These valiant attempts at remaking popular sites for the people by the people are not only fighting every corporation that wants them gone as a concept but also their own dumb decisions, which will probably prove too much of a hurdle in the long run.

    • bbor•1y

      I wanted to like lemmy so bad. I lucked into a lifetime ban from Reddit after using it daily for 12 years, so you’d think it would be easy! But there’s just not enough people to make it interesting, not even close. I subbed to every damn instance I could find, and still no luck.

      https://slrpnk.net is an exception in that it’s a cute place for activism and related news, but that’s obviously not the only thing I want to use the internet for, especially when I’m looking to relax.

      So far, with an n of 5 days: BlueSky is what I was waiting for. Especially for scientific content - memes or otherwise!

    • timeon•1y

      > wall off tiny gardens where nothing is happening

      This is actually reason why I like Mastodon. There is barely anything happening. I get content from few niches - but I do not need it to be generating something every minute. I have no time for that.

      But for people who prefer old Twitter experience, BlueSky is pretty good.

      • moffkalast•1y

        I would go out on a limb and postulate that most people prefer lots of meaningless content. At least if the popularity of Tiktok is anything to go buy.

  • apitman•1y

    To date decentralization is inversely correlated to good UX.

    * nostr is very decentralized (keys) and has terrible UX (manual management of keys).

    * Mastodon is medium decentralized (dependence on DNS; can't migrate accounts) and has bad UX (confusion about which instance to use; "Take Me Home" to interact with anything).

    * Bluesky (atproto) is moderately decentralized (did:plc) and has great UX.

    The main advantage that atproto has over the other two is that if someone solves the did:plc problem, it can become the first very decentralized/great UX social media platform over night.

    • StellarStoic•1y

      Nostr's poor UX is a feature, not a bug. It serves as a reminder that life isn’t perfect.

      Basic knowledge of manual key management should be essential for every internet user. Think about password managers.

      What I love about Nostr is that individuals can actively participate in making it better. It’s fully open, allowing anyone to build whatever they wish on top of it. I agree it’s not perfect now, but it will improve over time and the progress already made can speak for itself that Nostr is here to stay and it's getting better and better each day. The more developers the Nostr ecosystem has, the faster it will evolve.

      Personally, I enjoy using it. Cross-posting has been resolved, so I can’t even remember the last time I opened Twitter. Mastodon never really attract me much. Bluesky is yet another Twitter and it's not decentralized. They can read your DMs btw.

      One of best features of Nostr is when you build something, you get users instantly and whenever I post on nostr I cross post to Mastodon and Bluesky as well. Reactions are also interchangeable :)

  • gr__or•1y

    I think there is an interesting piece to be written about how prone bsky is to being captured by a single entity. It would look at how the reality of PDS today is 99.9999% (not the actual number, but ballpark) bsky hosted, also true for the relay. Then it would outline EEE scenarios, their likelihoods and whether bksy is sufficiently decentralized to fend them off.

    This post is not that and misses the mark for me.

  • colesantiago•1y

    Unfortunately close to nobody on or has moved to Bluesky cares about it being decentralized, they just want another Twitter that just works.

    Most of the people on Bluesky that have moved are artists, academics, writers and creative folks that don't care about tech.

    If they did care about decentralization they would be all going to Mastodon right now, but there isn't any traction there in the millions.

    • brianolson•1y

      95% of end users don't care; but Bluesky has the right bits built in anyway. There's a grand central aggregator of all 13 million accounts, but it's not _special_, someone else could run one (several hobbiests are processing this level of data). Migration works* (and works better than Mastodon, all your history and network move even better than a masto server move) (*okay, it's a weird command line tool at the moment, but as soon as someone cares that'll get cleaned up). You can run your own Personal Data Server and hook it in to the bsky network and then everyone can see your posts and interact with them. It's newer, only a couple years old, but all the right parts are headed in the right direction.

    • jahnu•1y

      Close to nobody should need to understand what decentralisation means. This was/is a problem with Mastodon. When it was new it required understanding things most people didn’t want to know and arguably shouldn’t need to know.

    • pfraze•1y

      I’m not sure that’s true. We have a lot of people who are invested in the protocol and the technology. I post threads about it periodically, and people are pretty engaged & excited: https://bsky.app/profile/pfrazee.com/post/3l6xwi52zti2y

    • Nursie•1y

      Outside of tech circles I think that’s generally true. Few people understand what it means for something to be decentralised and fewer people are idealistic enough to care if it means compromising on features.

      It’s all about the user experience. See also privacy and security.

    • threeseed•1y

      Bluesky = 13m users, Mastodon = 9m users.

      Bluesky hasn't released what their DAU/MAUs are but Mastodon's aren't that bad.

      https://bsky.social/about/blog/10-24-2024-series-a https://mastodon-analytics.com

      • colesantiago•1y

        Bluesky has 1.43M daily active users on average and 6M monthly actives.

        https://bskycharts.edavis.dev/edavis.dev/bskycharts.edavis.d...

        Mastodon has dropped to 800K monthly actives and has no data on daily actives which I would assume that number would be even lower.

        Not a good look for Mastodon, considering that huge drop of 400K monthly users on that active users chart and did not recover even after Elon's changes to X, the majority of X users in Brazil chose Bluesky and ignored Mastodon.

        • pfraze•1y

          More like 2.25mm DAU actually

      • AlexAplin•1y

        Watching the firehose events they're probably clearing Mastodon for now. We'll see how that looks after it stabilizes again, the surges tend to have pretty steep dropoffs so far.

        https://bsky.jazco.dev/stats https://bskycharts.edavis.dev/edavis.dev/bskycharts.edavis.d...

      • amatecha•1y

        Dunno, this account[0] says Mastodon has 15.5m users, says it pulls from https://instances.social/ .. no clue how reliable/accurate their data is though.

        [0] https://mastodon.social/@mastodonusercount/11327098336778135...

      • isodev•1y

        Can we actually count the number of instances and users on Mastodon (the fediverse)? I have alt accounts in at least two separate "bubbles" of servers that only federate with each other and wouldn't show up in stats like this.

        • notpushkin•1y

          This is a rather tricky question. What does count as the fediverse in the first place?

          • isodev•1y

            I assume nodes capable of interacting via activity pub? Good question - if a server uses activity pub but not in a way that's compatible with say mastodon (e.g. they use notes for a different purpose), then does this count or not?

            I think framing social networks with metrics like number of nodes or active daily users is inadequate and only designed to appeal to some VC/founder mode bros.

    • kfrzcode•1y

      X seems to be working quite well. Especially considering the significant reduction in overhead since Elon's purchase.

      • timeon•1y

        Anyone on internet can see this Mastodon post with comments. Unfortunately X is only able to display it all to logged-in users. Old Twitter was able to display it to anyone as well. Seems like X is in austerity mode.

      • croes•1y

        Do you mean technically or financially?

  • badrequest•1y

    This is a ludicrous paranoid screed that, thanks to the nature of Mastodon, will not be on the live internet in a decade's time.

  • ck2•1y

    People are going to nit-pic and while some of the concerns have some weight to them, so far they are trivial IMHO

    The fact is we need an alternative to X because the current owner has done and will continue to do terrible things not just to the service but apparently on a personal and political level that is beyond distasteful to a HUGE chunk of the users (if not even greater than 50%)

    And Threads isn't going to cut it for similar reasons.

    So in an imperfect world Bluesky is what we get and it's a legit alternative that's better.

    The fact a Mastodon<->Bluesky bridge exists says A LOT. Good luck ever getting something like that with X without paying a literal fortune for it.

    • BlueTemplar•1y

      Bluesky, being by Twitter founders, isn't that much better in this sense than Threads/Facebook/Meta.

      And the biggest issue with Xitter still isn't Elon Musk (have you forgotten the "Trump years" already ?), but because the way how that media works is turning discussions into flamewars, and its users into morons (including Musk, who reportedly was hooked on it long before he bought it). It's especially concerning when journalists (who really should know better) and politicians use it.

      That blame lies very much on Twitter's founders.

  • •1y
    [deleted]
  • •1y
    [deleted]
  • avinassh•1y

    related: any high level architecture details on how BlueSky uses SQLite per user?

    • •1y
      [deleted]
    • Natanael_L•1y

      It's used in a not particularly advanced way - bluesky uses repositories per each user for all their public social activity (posts, likes, etc) and it creates a Merkle tree as an index for them and signs that index (this enables stuff like authenticated content addressing and efficient verification).

      SQLite simply stores those posts and that signed Merkle tree. The PDS account host server also has another SQLite DB with a list of its accounts.

      They have fancier stuff in their appview server and relay server

  • jeroenhd•1y

    Bluesky's marketing is rather annoying on my opinion. They're not defederated in practice and they probably never will be, but that's okay. People don't want a new Mastodon, they want a new Twitter after Musk fucked that up worse than ever.

    Their promises of portability may ring empty but so far their lack of AI algorithm and ad feeds are what people actually come to Bluesky for

    If you want federation, ActivityPub is there and ready to go. You could probably hack together a bidirectional Bluesky <-> Mastodon bridge without too much effort (requiring an account on BS to post from Mastodon) and enjoy the portability of your main account while also being able to follow your friends and such on BS.

    • MiguelX413•1y

      I ultimately came to the conclusion that both those who advocated for the fediverse as a Twitter replacement and those who complained that it was inadequate as a Twitter replacement were both wrong. People don't need “a Twitter” in the first place. It's a terrible website designed to maximize engagement, including negative engagement, for its profit.

      I quite agree with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38445649

      • threeseed•1y

        > terrible website designed to maximize engagement

        It really does show why engagement should never be monetised.

        It's just full of fight videos, repackaged memes, controversial takes etc. all designed to get some extra money for the poster. Even VCs and the startup community gets in on it.

    • GaryNumanVevo•1y

      see: BridgyFed

    • exodust•1y

      [flagged]

      • threeseed•1y

        I just tried signing up for X using a new account.

        99% ultra-right wing political content with obscene amounts of overt racism, anti-semitism etc.

        Even though when it asked for my interests politics wasn't even an option.

        • exodust•1y

          "99%"... sure.

          So just follow the accounts you're interested in? If you just signed up, how does the "for you" know what you like? You can spend all day on X and never see any of that stuff you mention.

          Do you prefer "ultra-left wing" content? There's plenty on X, including angry marxists, anti-capitalists, de-colonisers, race-baiters, compulsive virtue-signallers, tantrum-throwers, Musk-haters, dis-information trolls, intifada-fascists, take your pick!

          I remember back when Trump was president, every single post he made on Twitter had a torrent of abusive replies bubbling to the top. Even ordinary mundane posts about routine things happening in government were met with endless insult-memes. Surely you don't think Twitter was once a place where inflammatory posts were rare and everyone had good manners?

          • defrost•1y

            > race-baiters, compulsive virtue-signallers, tantrum-throwers, dis-information trolls,

            are hardly exclusive "ultra-left wing" users, arguably there's more of that to the far-right .. and that's just Tucker Carlson on a slow day.

            > Even ordinary mundane posts about routine things happening in government

            In your honest opinion, if Trump only ever made ordinary mundane statements about the routine day to day functions of government would there be anything like the level of anti-Trump anger exhibited?

            Is it possible the insult-memes are an unsuprising result of a tendancy to praise Hitlers Generals, demonise the people he should work with as "the enemy within", suggest removing licences from news organisations he objects to, etc?

            • exodust•1y

              You've gone off topic. I have no interest in rating politicians or their rhetoric. All are guilty at one time or another of gross exaggeration, mud-slinging, spin, etc.

              The point is/was regarding X, you can enjoy all the hate-memes towards your favourite enemy. Or just follow posts about Unreal Engine or ancient history or announcements from politicians etc. Follow your favourite Marxists! Or don't follow them. Anything is possible. But whatever you do, don't whinge about "Musk ruined Twitter". That's disinformation of sorts, since as I just explained, you can sign up to X and do whatever you want - read only, post pictures of paint drying, poke fun at celebrities, advocate for animal rights. Up to you.

    • innocentoldguy•1y

      How did Musk "fuck [Twitter] up worse than ever"? It has more functionality and is more stable since Musk bought it.

      • bbor•1y

        Source? AFAIK it is not more stable:

        https://www.thousandeyes.com/blog/internet-report-twitter-to...

          Twitter appears to be an outlier in that respect. Instead of displaying the usual post-acquisition stability, ThousandEyes’ data indicates that the number and frequency of outages did increase commensurate with the acquisition. If we compare the two periods (pre- and post-acquisition), it’s apparent that there were fewer and less frequent outages prior to the purchase.
        And “more functionality”… I guess time continues marching forward so there are some new things, but nothing game changing IMO. The creator economy on there is nonexistent, and changing the color of the checkmarks from blue to grey seems like a lateral move.
        • innocentoldguy•1y

          Nothing game-changing? How about:

          • Long-form content

          • Video streaming

          • Grok

          • Ability to edit posts

          • Bookmarks

          • Communities

          • Better verification system

          • Encrypted direct messages

          • Cashtag feature

          • Bold and italic text formatting

          • Open-sourced algorithm

          • Premium features

          • Improved search

          • Improved analytics for content creators

          • And most importantly, less First-Amendment violations in secret partnership with the federal government

          • exodust•1y

            Don't forget community notes. While not perfect, it presents valuable context or counter-points. Musk's posts have been community noted a few times.

            Grok is a nice feature, although for paid accounts only. It also seems slightly out of place on X. Most people are there to express themselves, not necessarily seek help or information from AI-gen. I tried it for some coding help, and it did fine.. but doing that task on X felt odd.

            • eadler•1y

              Community notes was designed and shipped before the takeover. It was called "birdwatch".

              • exodust•1y

                Never heard of birdwatch, never saw it.

                I'm in Australia, explanation follows:

                From wikipedia: "In November 2022, at the request of new owner Elon Musk, Birdwatch was rebranded to Community Notes... and expanded to Europe and countries outside of the US."

          • Natanael_L•1y

            Most of that doesn't deserve to be called an improvement. That message encryption is one of the worst designs I've ever seen. The algorithm isn't open enough that anybody can see if what it's doing matches the code.

            And instead of censoring "secretly" in partnership with the US government they do so in partnership with the Indian government as well as individual Republican politicians.

            • innocentoldguy•1y

              > Most of that doesn't deserve to be called an improvement.

              Hard disagree. The platform is objectively much better than it was under Jack Dorsey.

              > The algorithm isn't open enough that anybody can see if what it's doing matches the code.

              Fair, but more is available than before.

              > ...in partnership with the Indian government as well as individual Republican politicians.

              Would you prefer X break India's laws, specifically Section 69A of the IT Act? I suppose they could do that and then the Indian government would shut them down in India.

              Also, are you talking about X suspending Ken Klippenstein's account for doxxing JD Vance? X's rules explicitly state that doxxing people will result in a suspension, so maybe Klippenstein should have thought of that before posting Vance's home address and most of his social security number.

              Here's X's policy against what Klippenstein did, which applies to everyone: https://help.x.com/en/rules-and-policies/personal-informatio...

              • Natanael_L•1y

                Before Musk, Twitter used to fight those requests.

                The platform can not be called better, with more bugs and errors than ever.

                Why don't they apply those rules to Republicans? Why can they specifically post stuff like private info about Hunter?

          • bbor•1y

            Thanks for the reply! That's a good list. Of those, I would break them down accordingly:

              - Cool new features
    - Encrypted direct messages
    - Video streaming
    - Ability to edit posts
    - Communities (IDK what this but it sounds cool)
    - Bookmarks
    - Cashtag feature (?)
    - Improved analytics for content creators

  - Trivial decisions about policy
    - Long-form content
    - Bold and italic text formatting

  - Untrue, or at least unverified
    - Better verification system (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-confusion-and-risks-surrounding-twitters-verified-account-changes, https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/24/tech/musk-twitter-blue-check-mark/index.html)
    - Open-sourced algorithm (https://www.wired.com/story/twitters-open-source-algorithm-is-a-red-herring/)
    - Premium features (?)
    - Improved search (?)

  - Same shit different day
    - Grok
            Which, tbf, is a lot more cool features than I was giving them credit for! I still think the whole 'nazi' and 'arbitrary moderation' thing outweighs those changes by a lot, but they did add stuff.
            • innocentoldguy•1y

              I'm not sure what you mean by "Nazi" and "arbitrary moderation." Can you clarify?

              • Natanael_L•1y

                Musk is reposting actual neonazi accounts

      • timeon•1y

        Like Facebook, it does not really work for people without account. It did before. So for most people on the internet it has less functionality (if any).

      • macobrien•1y

        To give just one example, sometime in March of this year, a bug appeared in the Android app that prevents loading of new posts for several minutes after the phone is plugged in to charge. It's now been 7 months, and the bug has not been fixed.

  • bowsamic•1y

    I'm not really sure what the benefit of BS over Mastodon is anyway. Everyone interesting is on Mastodon

    • rsynnott•1y

      Bluesky’s more accessible to the general public. I’m on both, though use Mastodon more (partially due to _far_ better third party clients available); it’s a very different crowd.

      • bowsamic•1y

        How would you describe Bluesky's crowd vs. Mastodon? I found the latter great for finding interesting developers, musicians, artists, etc.

        My X is full of people having constant meltdowns or who are just always fighting others, no one really sharing anything interesting.

        Haven't tried bluesky bc it was invite only (I assume it isn't anymore if you say it's accessible) and I didn't really care enough to ask for one from someone.

        • steveklabnik•1y

          bsky is open to anyone, and has been for a while now, that’s correct.

    • jacooper•1y

      Sure, if you don't care about sports, news, anything other than tech.

      Bluesky literally just started and it already covers more things than mastodon ever did while providing a better UX without stupid technical limitations like not implementing global full text search.

      • bowsamic•1y

        Are there artists and musicians on bluesky, or just programmers?

        • steveklabnik•1y

          A lot of artists came over recently because you're not allowed to opt out of Grok anymore.

          I haven't seen a ton of musicians.

          It's more than just programmers though; lots of news organizations, some government stuff... there just aren't 12M programmers in the world, it's got some variety. Though not everything of course, I know some folks who are still waiting on sports content to show up more, for example.

        • jacooper•1y

          I would say there are more artists and game designers than programmers.

          However sports and news content in general is still lacking, but better than mastodon for sure.

    • •1y
      [deleted]
  • scirob•1y

    People on mastodon are so toxic. I tried to contribute code and content was threatened with lawsuits by people who don't understand that their protocol is explicitly designed for open data

  • •1y
    [deleted]
  • dangsux•1y

    [dead]

  • maxlin•1y

    [flagged]

    • rsynnott•1y

      I mean, Twitter itself borrowed most of its concepts from either the user base (@ mentions, replies, retweets, quote tweets were all informal behaviours before they were features) or other social media platforms, particularly Tumblr. It is very much a field where doing it well beats being the first.

      Of course, if you’re earlier you have network effects, but Carface seems doggedly determined to compensate by driving the existing network away.

      • maxlin•1y

        I don't disagree but that's not my point.

        The point is, there's little reason to go to the clones, you just lose the network effects, as X is still clearly "the" place to post stuff, and where your identity is the strongest. Which is important given in actuality it's not such a walled garden with authoritarian rule throwing people out like Twitter was. Only when everyone can have their say, you end up with something that ACTUALLY represents the "town square". Blue Sky might also be the town square, but more akin to one of a closed soviet military town.

  • udev4096•1y

    [flagged]

  • benreesman•1y

    It’s hard to imagine any upper bound on broken or useless or corrupt that would invalidate one more news feed.

    The gates are open on Google Search shaping your information, on Meta shaping your fashion, on Amazon shaping your commercial instinct.

    And on YC boosting tired legacies around AirBnB rather than contemporary realities like Garry “Die Motherfucker” Tan pimping Pear “ChatGPT that license” shit on X.

    I’ve had a beer with Zuckerberg and one with Dorsey, I say it can’t get any worse.

  • blitzar•1y

    Still waiting for my day 1 request to be considered for membership to come through. Don't think I made the cut.

    • paulgb•1y

      You can just sign up now, you don’t need an invite.

      • blitzar•1y

        Its ok, they have my details. I am sure they will let me know when it is time.

        • pfraze•1y

          I personally and formally invite you to join. Im sure your original invite got lost in the mail.

          Fwiw the invites were really just to manage scale. We weren’t ready yet and demand was high. We weren’t trying to exclude people

          • dredds•1y

            A reservation queue would have worked just as well. (first in first served) The invite system sets up existing hierarchy of insiders and outsiders from the get-go, favoring the already popular, and creating a wall for new (single) users perhaps not in the hot geolocations where invites get handed out in bulk. It actually excludes people who are already struggling to socialize, and rewards those who have all the 'right connections'.

            • pfraze•1y

              We did both. I don’t know why the invite didn’t reach their email

  • threeseed•1y

    Not sure how it is better than Threads.

    At least Meta is delivering on their promise to integrate with Mastodon and move us closer to decentralised social networks.

    • pfraze•1y

      Bluesky integrates with Mastodon better than Threads does at this point. I have bidirectional conversations with mastodon users, with notifications, using a bridge called BridgyFed. I can follow Mastodon users on Bluesky. I can’t with Threads.

    • d1sxeyes•1y

      I mean, Meta’s ActivityPub integration is one-way on public profiles. I think even Facebook used to allow you to get RSS feeds of your friends’ updates in the early days. Threads’s lip-service towards AP is barely better than that.

    • timeon•1y

      I have hard time believing Meta since both Facebook and Instagram are not open to public. But time will tell.

  • immibis•1y

    Glad this information is finally going mainstream. BlueSky users used to tell everyone it was more decentralized than Mastodon because of this DID thing.