There's a general trend right now against privacy and in a more general sense against freedom. More and more companies are on board with it. I'm not sure if anyone in HN has any useful advice in this regard. I feel like I don't know what to do about the internet for the next 5-10 years. Does this particular measure matter very much? No, but it's another brick in the wall.
It could be a move to have parity with TikTok, where they claim it’s for safety reasons. I’ve been seeing advertisements for Instagram touting their child/teen protection features. Seems like they’re really trying to beat the allegations that Instagram is bad for children’s health.
Protecting kids and Terrorism, always the reason why nobody is allowed to have privacy on the internet.
Cars nowadays are packed with microphones and permanently connected to the internet on daily basis so that drivers can have remote assistance when the car breaks once every 5 years or so.
I keep hearing this one. But at least for EU, the eCall system requires external communication to be disabled until activated during serious accident. It cannot be used for tracking the vehicle in real-time.
Some parts of the legislation (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32...):
> 2. The personal data processed pursuant to this Regulation shall only be used for the purpose of handling the emergency situations referred to in the first subparagraph of Article 5(2).
> Manufacturers shall provide clear and comprehensive information in the owner's manual about the processing of data carried out through the 112-based eCall in-vehicle system. That information shall consist of:
> the fact that there is no constant tracking of the vehicle;
That vehicle nowadays are equipped with always-on internet and microphones is not related to remote assistance.
This is such misdirection.
Your car if new enough, IS reporting its diagnostics including GPS via cell. All the time. This isn’t exactly personally identifiable so they get away with it just fine.
This is unrelated to the microphones and assistance systems.
It becomes personally identifiable through correlations with other datasets.
That is the kind of thing people allow when they click accept or decline on those pesky ”we and our 195735 partners would like to…” dialogs.
Which is exactly my point. Cars are reporting on you, but tying that to remote assistance is disingenuous.
And also so employees of said companies can spy on drivers and make fun of them: https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...
Which just shows that consumers don't care. Tesla's camera surveillance wasn't exactly secret.
Equating what companies get away with, as the clear signal to what consumers care about.
And billionaires and nine-day old alts wonder why they need a bunker.
The sad part is, Instagram is exceptionally damaging to kids for a disjoint set of reasons.
As is social media in general. I highly recommend reading the Anxious Generation
It's bad for EVERYONE's health. Try to limit your usage and you'll feel better. I promise you'll feel better.
It certainly is unsafe for their AI training corpus. Win / win if they can also lie about protecting children as a motivation.
Protect your kids from whom? Surely not Meta, which is my main concern.
More like excuse
How these protections are working when I get served literal porn every couple of shorts on Instagram?
So apparently this was opt-in, much like Telegram's OTR chat feature, and thus completely different than WhatsApp where it has always been default. Not a good look regardless, but the few who went into chat settings for a specific person to turn this on in the first place will likely just switch to WhatsApp or another app rather than continue without it.
Yeah. If privacy is of concern, you do not use Instagram or WhatsApp anyway.
When Meta starting introducing E2E messaging it was a huge push. I wonder why they're doing away with it.
It was for plausible deniability because of regulatory scrutiny. Regulator's dead now, so now there's no downside and only upsides to spying on your users.
They never did this for user privacy, and yes I think you're spot on. This was just to remove liability.
Now it just costs them the data and development cost to maintain. Any remaining problems they'll throw some crappy AI moderator at to fix.
Not hard to be right about this when you worked there at the time ;)
Palantir
PR. They wanted to seem like the good guys, but they get your messages through backdoors like the automatic backup.
i am guessing that they just dont really need to pretend to care anymore. e2e messaging was a big marketing push, not ever an ideological thing. i assume they no longer believe the marketing benefits outweigh the downsides.
Probably Whatsapp is next, if it isn't quietly already.
I doubt it, E2E isba huge part of Whatsapp's selling point considering it's exclusively a messaging app. Instagram is primarily a social app with messaging features.
Normal people don't choose a messaging app based on E2EE but based on whether their friends use it.
> Probably Whatsapp is next, if it isn't quietly already.
And I will be pushing to remove WhatsApp if that’s the case.
Is this legitimate? It's so incoherent to see this blurb at the top saying it's being retired while everything underneath is pitching the value of e2e.
Socials are caught in the innovator's dilemma.
Given the dependence our society now has on the internet, it's bonkers to me that more VCs aren't rethinking their investment strategy. Privacy is not some niche concern anymore, check out the response to Flock for example.
On the other hand Messenger has moved to only supporting e2ee chats, wonder why the difference.
To me, Instagram is a public platform at its core, where people publish things for the whole world to see. Private messages are just a secondary feature. It is like having a conversation in a restaurant, where the guy at the next table can listen to everything, but usually doesn't. Good enough for planning a surprise party, not for truly sensitive information. Kind of like private messages in Reddit, Discord, etc... a convenient feature, but don't expect real privacy.
Messenger has a higher expectation of privacy, Facebook is more at the "group of friends" level. While Instagram is a public restaurant, Facebook is more like a house party. WhatsApp has the highest expectation of privacy as it is designed for private, often one-to-one conversations first.
Sure, but if you already have e2ee, it takes work to remove it... why invest the time to do that?
It also takes work to keep it working and it may have a lot of bugs already, that are hard to fix because of it. A non-E2EE chat app is very easy to make.
Did they give a reason why are they doing this?
This feature has never been available to me- it just threw an error each time. Wonder how far it actually got rolled out?
I don't use IG although they dearly want me to, giving me a popup every time I visit, but let me talk about FB for a second (and btw FB wanted to enable cross-platform messaging on the platforms they own - Meta - which seems anti-trust-y) - when they introduced encryption on FB, they made it mandatory. They opted everyone in, and it broke Messenger. If you delete cookies you might also delete messages. Isn't that convenient?
Never rely on a platform used by the masses to perform E2EE. It is far too easy to strip away E2EE for targeted users without their knowledge as they maintain the server and client code. This advise is to protect from corporations gobbling up and ultimately leaking sensitive data. Spooks can target the device itself via debug access for nation state level threats.
Consider instead using a code word or phrase to move sensitive conversations to something self hosted such as jabber using OMEMO XEP-0384 and XEP-0373 OpenPGP for XMPP and SASL SCRAM. OMEMO is an implementation of the Signal protocol on top of the XMPP protocol.
e.g. "_Expletive_! I stubbed my toe!" other-person: "lol geezer watch where you are walking." conversation quietly and temporarily moves to the pre-shared self-hosted Jabber server. Temporarily because going dark can draw attention. Feed the big chat platform boring garbage and misdirection.
Unless you're actually a spy, there's no reason to do this. Just use your secure solution all the time with those conversation partners who are willing to use it.
Unless you're actually a spy, there's no reason to do this. Just use your secure solution all the time with those conversation partners who are willing to use it.
Fundamentally I agree with you but people will stay on the platforms where their friends are. To change that the platform would have to do something really bad such as forcing age checks and even then I think many will just put up with it to stay connected to their friends.
People catch the spooks and their exploits all the time though.
It is possible to defend against them. Maybe not on your phone though.
Agreed. I just mentioned that for the spooks who don't like I am suggesting moving sensitive conversations elsewhere using basic opsec. I assume the farm recruits on HN are probably just as concerned about AI taking their jobs. Surely someone has bought AI a coffee unprompted by now, maybe even flirted with the AI.
I don't quite understand your comment. I also disagree with some implications of the final bit of your first comment: encryption is obviously basic privacy, but the interesting bit is who you're talking to.
So having a signal for switching mediums is something that I feel indicates thinking in the wrong direction.
So having a signal for switching mediums is something that I feel indicates thinking in the wrong direction.
It's not for everyone. I grew up with code phrases. My mom knew that if I said "I love you" to send in the cavalry. We had similar processes in the military. If I answered the phone a particular way they knew the remote site was under siege.
That's an okay use, but in that use you're not attempting to achieving privacy.
Everyone knows you talk to your parents, but code phrases are not a way to get privacy.
This could obviously tie to sending you more ads.
It could also tag people communicating about topics ig chat that it is actively suppressing.
They may be looking for an uproar to reverse the policy as so far, it's just words.
The USA is going full fascism. People keep laughing at it and only realize it when it's too late.
It's not only the united states of America. These tyrannical views have been brewing everywhere for years, and there was not enough public counter-narrative to these ideologies.
because everyone is forced to use Instagram messaging, right?
because they want to read your messages for training ai and for advertising
We all know what this means.
just waiting on whatsapp to rug pull as well & then bye bye privacy & meta from my life
Wouldn't bye bye meta be hello privacy into your life?
I wonder if this is the start of a trend or just a one-off?
Probably a one off? Instagram’s e2ee was opt-in from the start- and meanwhile Facebook Messenger is now “e2ee for everyone” and none of this is affecting the main e2ee messaging apps people use - WhatsApp, Signal, and iMessage
TikTok replied recently it wouldn't encrypt its messages either, citing user security as reason.
Wait, people trust communication via Instagram thinking they are secure?
Facebook were at both ends, the encryption was between the ends.
The US is building out the infrastructure for a police state. The people who control the consolidated tech platforms are either spearheading or collaborating with that process. Privacy as a concept isn't even in the cards.
You need to be prepared to avoid saying naughty things on the internet. Otherwise, perhaps someone will figure out that you great-great grandfather didn't sign in the right spot in 1897 and you're presence in the United States is void, retroactive to your birth. Off to El Salvador with you, enemy of the people.
I wonder if promoting open-source tooling and best practices could make it easier for new apps to adopt security features like E2E encryption. For example, someone building a chat app might not add E2E encryption unless they have access to user-friendly tools and are encouraged to do so.
Startups that initially choose the more private implementation version often face a disadvantage. They may not see immediate benefits and instead experience drawbacks, such as caring a bit more than their competitors. For example, an AI plugin using local large language models for privacy might not be rewarded as much as a competitor who fully embraces cloud-based solutions.
That's all fine and good but this is Meta removing an existing implementation. How would you stop decisions like that?
If you’re a good boy then you have nothing to hide right? Not even your passwords…
unfortunately, since the messaging/trend isnt "we are against privacy" (it is "we are protecting children, which reluctantly means we all have to sacrifice a wee bit of privacy"), it is really hard to fight back without being labelled as someone who is against protecting children.
but the advice is basically the same as it always has been:
- talk to your friends and family about it. do it with passion, but without hyperbole or conspiracy or aggression. any person you can convince to care is a win. organize with like-minded people.
- talk to your representatives in government. vote for representatives that are pro-privacy (when possible). convince your like-minded friends and family to do the same.
- to the greatest extent possible, dont purchase/use products/services which are facilitating the trend. (but, you also need to be realistic or you will burn out! and that is a bigger loss overall).
- if you are a decision-maker at work, or have any sort of input, leverage it as best as you can to make pro-privacy business decisions. however, similar to the above point, recognize that you still need to be realistic and dont get yourself fired arguing some decision. it is better to make 1,000 nudges in the right direction than it is to be fired/burn out trying to make 1 big nudge.
- support organizations that align with your beliefs. this can be monetarily, or by volunteering, or by spreading awareness of the organization itself. for example, many people have never heard of the electronic frontier foundation and have no idea what they do. lots of people dont know of the ACLU either (or, maybe they have heard the name, but dont know what they do or why it matters).
That's not what I am seeing on the ground. Many discord users I have seen talk about this issue frame this as an attack on freedom and privacy by hiding it behind the same narrative that has been used so many times before of protecting children. You can only push fake narratives so far until people start getting the message that people are hiding nefarious attacks on society behind fake movements.
>Many discord users I have seen talk about this issue frame this as an attack on freedom
good!
i am referring to how it is being framed by the people pushing the agenda. age verification laws (as an easy example) arent being advertised as "we want to spy on you", they are being advertised as "this will protect children from harms".
talk to debbie in accounting instead of babmorley420 in discord, and ask her opinion. she is not likely to frame it as an attack on privacy/freedom. she is likely to frame it as a necessary sacrifice for the greater good. and her opinion also matters, she also votes. we need to convince the debbies of the world -- they outnumber the babmorley420s
> I feel like I don't know what to do about the internet for the next 5-10 years.
Switch to decentralized, e2ee alternatives, support https://eff.org
As a California resident I request to download my personal data from every service I can, and I’m constantly surprised. We each have scores for all kinds of things. The local power company keeps a “Green Ideology” score on me.
When I see the word "score", it reminds me of the CCP social scoring system.
It makes me curious what other scores (I would call them labels) there are.
How is that even legal?
Because it's not illegal. Most data privacy laws just require that user can see data collected about them and prevent sale of said data in optout fashion.
There are rarely laws around preventing collection of said data or using said data for some new service.
It's depressing to think that after the abuses people suffered during the lockdowns the response has been to embrace authoritarianism even more. It makes me fear how far this could go before people realize how bad it is.
Fundamentally I think that liberal democracy won't be able to survive compute, communication, and storage being cheap, combined with asymmetric encryption. I really think there should be an article illustrating just how much that last one is fundamental to making the apparatus of control cheap and effective in a way that 20th century regimes could only dream of.
What abuses?
You're on a site with a surprisingly high amount of support among commenters for trading privacy and freedom for convenience and comfort where it aligns with their religion/other biases or desired consumer experiences. I don't know if this the best place to ask for advice.
I'm not sure people realize that HN is already at the most libertarian end, and all the discourse spaces which are much closer to actual power and legislation are much less pro-privacy.
Historically, like 10-20 years ago, libertarian would be staunchly pro privacy. Is this no longer the case? If libertarians have dropped this stance, since it is so close to what was the core beliefs, I really have no mental model of the philosophy/politics for libertarians any more.
Any primer/link on what current libertarians believe is welcome.
i don't understand this doomer mentality regarding the internet.
internet is a service that you choose what to engage and how. don't like a platform? find another, build it or stop using it altogether.
personally, i find these things really great has it helps nudge people into the more decentralized web. a few years ago those who were pushing for privacy respecting apps and platforms were deemed too paranoid.
Network effects will keep a person on a platform until a critical mass of their social circle decide to leave all at once. I'm no expert, but I suspect that that critical mass is pretty high, maybe more than 50% of a person's circle. So it's not exactly vanilla free-market competition. Entrenched players have a pretty big advantage.
what does your social circle being on Instagram bring to you? seriously, this picture-sharing app has evolved into this content spread machine that brings very little value.
When most of your social circle exists on one platform, you tend to use that platform less for its specific features, and more because of the fact that all your friends are there. I don't personally use Instagram, and this is anecdotal information, but I know a lot of people who only use Instagram to see what their friends and family are up to, and to watch the occasional reel.
But you're absolutely right about Instagram's evolution. It's crazy.
Many people make their livings from these platforms. They cant leave without abandoning most of their income stream.